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copperhead


Feb 7, 2003, 5:10 PM
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What if…

…all of the un-original bolts on Zodiac were chopped and all holes patched? This would include chicken bolts that have more recently been replaced with 3/8” bolts but would not include the rivets that were added to pitch 12 after the flake cut loose. The objective would be to reduce the hole-count to that of the FA.

Comments?


flamer


Feb 7, 2003, 5:21 PM
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Wow Bryan this is a load question! It seems like a great idea! However not knowing enough about this route, I do believe I'll sit on the fence, and watch what happens!
josh


iamthewallress


Feb 7, 2003, 5:27 PM
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Probably more interesting than what someone like me who has never done the route and wouldn't have the time or muscle to chop the new 3/8" bolts on it if I did do it is...what do YOU think about chopping those bolts?


epic_ed


Feb 7, 2003, 5:42 PM
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Great idea! But wait until after I've climbed it in May.

I need every advantage I can get...


pbjosh


Feb 7, 2003, 5:47 PM
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I dunno - if you restored every route to it's original ascent then there would be few if any routes for people to cut their teeth on. As you've previously said - ethics evolve, things change. Obviously that street goes both ways.

What if some of the sh*tty rivit ladders on Tangerine Trip had every 3rd or 5th replaced with a bolt and then everyone can cut their teeth there and Zodiac can be changed to a harder route? Or what if, or what if....

Anyways, personally I don't like the idea but I hardly have a leg to stand on in this argument...

josh


mesomorf


Feb 7, 2003, 5:55 PM
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Hmmm, it does seem like this is a question you've already decided in your own mind, copperhead.

At any rate, here are my comments.

I think straightening the fifth pitch was a great move. It was obvious that Porter bolted left until he could see that there was no (well, almost no) crack in the dihedral he was heading for. So he headed back right. It made sense to go straight up and reduce the total number of bolts.

I can't talk about any added chicken bolts, 'cause that's as high on the route as I got.

I do know the general policies of the ASCA, though. They strive to restore routes to the originally bolted state, only with new bolts. This means removing (NOT chopping) non-original bolts.

Greg Barnes told me that Chris McNamara went to great lengths to get a consensus about how the ASCA should rebolt Zodiac. I hope that before you undo that, you also strive for consensus.


bigwalling


Feb 7, 2003, 6:16 PM
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I think that would be a good idea. Look at this pic. It is picture number 11 that I'm referring to. Why the hell are there bolts next to that crack?


copperhead


Feb 7, 2003, 6:38 PM
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How about the Nose?


apollodorus


Feb 7, 2003, 7:29 PM
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If you want to do the route in the manner of the FA by Charlie Porter, do it solo, and don't clip the "offending" bolts that have been added or upgraded.

But, why force everyone else to adhere to your idea of what the route should be like?


punk


Feb 7, 2003, 7:40 PM
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Amen apollodorus
Isn’t how clean aid started…now u can call it boltless aid B1, B2 etc
do your thing...and let others be

[ This Message was edited by: punk on 2003-02-07 19:44 ]


yosemite


Feb 7, 2003, 8:00 PM
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Bryan,

Just ordered a cement tree for the Rotten Log pitch on the Royal Arches. Can't wait.....

Entropy.

Gene


pywiak


Feb 7, 2003, 8:47 PM
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While you're at it - how about patching all the "enhanced" hook placements? Of course, then some idiot with a chisel would just chop them out again...


elcapbuzz


Feb 7, 2003, 10:51 PM
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Hey Bryan,

I don't think it's a good idea. The biggest reason is because someone will just come along and put them back in. Damaging the route even further.

I don't agree with bolts next to cracks either. I was really disapointed with all of the bolts off Peanut Ledge.....but, I started thinking about it and realized that you would need 6-8 #4 Camelots if you want any pro in the pitch.

I think a lot of the fixed pins aren't necassary. I don't remember any enhanced hooking on the route.

Oh, Tangerine Trip IS rebolted. The dicey rivet lader is a bomber 3/8" bolt ladder with hangers.

Hope to see you soon, brutha.

Cheers, Ammon


apollodorus


Feb 7, 2003, 11:40 PM
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Hey, Ammon, didn't you catch some grief for putting a bolt next to the Hollow Flake last May when that big-ass snow storm rolled in for three or four days? Did anybody chop that yet? Or should someone do it?


karlbaba


Feb 8, 2003, 9:23 PM
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I soloed Zodiac in 1982 and then, 20 years later, climbed it clean with a partner. I think chopping the "staightened" route on pitch five would be a shame. The left hand way is just a mistake and ethics or not, cleaning up the route would mean chopping the left hand original way. Perhaps just leave em both. The offensive of metal is in our minds.

I didn't find whatever new bolts there were to be offensive. In 1982, there was hardly any bolt hangers on the whole route. A bit more exciting but more a pain in the ass. Zodiac make a great introduction to steep aid climbing

I get more bummed seeing pitons snapped off in the cracks with no eyes. Some folks may be trying to clean pins to clean up routes, others may just want free pins, but it really makes an ugly useless hunk of metal. If somebody wanted to do public service for the route, I'd figure out a way to clean snapped off baby angles and other crap.

Peace

Karl


elcapbuzz


Feb 8, 2003, 9:38 PM
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Hey Tom,

What does that have to do with this post?

Are you trying to make me look stupid?

It wasn't a chicken bolt and yes... I went back up there the day I met you and chopped it. I rope soloed to Lung Ledge, avoiding the bolt when freeing past it.

I WAS very upset about this whole thing and it feels like you are purposely throwing salt in the wound.

It's a very complicated situation of WHY I put a bolt in, in the first place.

BUT, I think anyone in my situation would have done the EXACT same thing..... and no I wasn't climbing the Salathe.

For those of you who don't know. I put up a variation route on El Cap last year that Alex Huber told me about.

Did PTPP put you up to this?

Cheers, Ammon


apollodorus


Feb 8, 2003, 10:49 PM
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Geeeez, Ammon, not that!

I think I failed to say what I meant to say.

My point was that you put a bolt in an emergency situation, but people later gave you grief.

I didn't mean to say that you placed bolts to F-Up the Salathe.

And that I hoped (figured?) that the point would be taken, that it had been chopped when the emergency had passed. No new bolts are still there. Man lives, and tells the tale. No harm, no foul to the route.

That was my point: bolts to save your life are OK, but they should be removed when the emergency is over.

And not like the bolts on Zodiac referenced in this topic, which, as you said, make sense and should stay there.

After all, that storm was not typical of California weather. A Late May snow storm, that breaks full-bloom dogwood trees at Curry Village, is rather rare.

My ability to communicate effectively is only overshadowed by my unwarranted propensity to try to be funny, and then piss people off in the process.

Ammon, I didn't mean it that way. I swear.

I meant that the bolt was OK for when it went it in for an emergency, but now it's good that it's gone.


I see this more and more as I get older: people hate me.

[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2003-02-09 01:59 ]


boltdude


Feb 8, 2003, 11:52 PM
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Always a tough question.

Return the Salathe to the original 13 bolts?

Keep original bolts even where they are not needed with modern gear?

Never place a new bolt even when the FA team left pins for rap stations, and knowing that replacing those pins decade after decade as they rust out will ruin the crack – while the bolt could be pulled and the holes patched cleanly in the future?

Never replace a protection pin with a bolt, despite the same issues?

Every bolt, every route should be considered for its merits. I’m all for chopping original bolts where they are no longer needed, and for adding bolts to eliminate pins at mandatory rap/belay stations. Bolts for pins as protection is a much more sensitive issue. But it all depends on the situation, and the opinion of the FA party must be taken into account (but not always heeded, as some FA folks may be all cool with adding bolts to their old routes when most would rather retain the original character, and others may want everything non-original chopped, which could lead to major issues as would happen if the Salathe suddenly had only the 13 bolts).

Tom Frost says that classic climbs exist for the current generation – but of course a theoretical future generation might decide to bolt everything. It’s up to us to keep the ethical flame alive. This sort of debate does exactly that. I think the most important thing to take out of the past bolt wars is for us to be reasonable, reach at least some sort of consensus instead of ego-wars, and above all to keep even our most heated disagreements – including chopping – within the climbing community, and NOT involving the land managers as has happened all too often on "both sides.” Going that way leads to regulation that no one wants (and makes all climbers look like petty idiots to the managers).


alpinelynx


Feb 9, 2003, 2:37 AM
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or, you could chop all the bolts, fill all the holes and restore El Cap to its original state (sort of). Then, you can put up a whole slew of routes. The bolt/chop bolt/chop cycle thus will continue on the new routes on the 'restored' El Cap.


dirko


Feb 9, 2003, 7:22 PM
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I myself have really stuggled with this topic over the years. I mean, if you "crave fear" like elcapadic, why not just lead the pitch on your gear and skip the bolts? Why not sabotage your gear for that matter? It will be scarier and harder.

I also realize that over-bolting is numbing aestetically, whether on sport or aid.

I think that we need to realize that climbing a rock invariably alters the rock. You chalk it, you break a hold, you bang it wider, you bolt it. I have often seen climbers succumbing to a school of thought much to prevalent in today's culture--the thought that "natural" is better. I have been told that eating milk is bad because it's unnatural (and I'm veggie!), and that bolting is wrong because it is unnatural. Well, news flash. Climbing is unnatural!

The real dilemma in my eyes is that we as climbers practice minimum impact. The question then arises: How much impact does a bolt cause? Anybody is free not to clip it. Of course, by the same logic, one could turn the right side of El Cap into Mt. Rushmore and tell people who don't like it "not to look at it."

I see things this way. Aid climbing is supposed to be sketch. No one expects safety on a big wall, and no one has a right to climb a wall. This means most wall bolts (such as those on Zodiac) can go.

Free climbing is the domain of the masses. Putting up a 2-bolt 5.7 seems silly to me. The people who could enjoy the route most are not going to enjoy it because it's too run-out. Putting up a 2-bolt 5.12 is equally silly because no one will ever do it. To establish a line and then claim a memoratoriam on it by precedent is ridiculous. No one owns the rock. The "trad ethic" in places like Whitesides, NC and Tuolumne has always confused me. Climbing doesn't matter when you are dead. Can we overcome fear without putting ourselves in life-threatening situations? I am not sure. As I see it now, big egos drive the numbers game more than big balls. What gives?

I'd have wandered far and wide, and I feel the need to sum things up. If Zodiac was cleaned from top to bottom, the route would be erased and everybody would be pissed. If Zodiac was bolted from top to bottom, the route would be a joke and everybody would be pissed. Nobody least of all Charlie Porter owns the Zodiac. It is a public resource, and should be managed as such--by consensus.

Cheers,
Dirk

[ This Message was edited by: dirko on 2003-02-09 19:24 ]

[ This Message was edited by: dirko on 2003-02-09 19:25 ]


drunkenmonkey


Feb 10, 2003, 9:38 AM
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FWIW
having only come to the arena of aid climbing recently and done only three walls in the valley last season i feel a little underinformed in this debate, however british climbing has suffered the same arguments and there has always been divergence in opinion. Zodiac is very much a giant sport route now and although there are a number of pitch's that have been 'changed' significantly i thought that aid routes always evolve this way and this was recognised. Any route with pins is going to change over time asthose pin scars become bigger. A different tack but on the same lines is that there are a number of section on Zodiac that have a number of blown RURP's in a row and the one that remains is super frayed and just waiting to go. what happens when there's no more crack for the next RURP does someone drill a bolt. has the route evolved to the point we shouldn't climb it? difficult questions. i think that there are some bolts on Zodiac that should be removed. there ya go


manacubus


Feb 10, 2003, 6:47 PM
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I did the route in May 2002 as my second wall. I was more dissapointed by the truckload of broken $#!&e (snapped heads, pins and RURPs) on Zodiac than the new bolts. That said, I reckon the new bolts should have only been placed where original rivits or bolts were placed. Except for the straightening out of pitch five - that made sense IMO.


karlbaba


Feb 10, 2003, 6:48 PM
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For what it's worth, I though doing Zodiac clean was about as hard as nailing it 20 years ago. The Nipple pitch might have been easier if I just cam hooked the crap out of it but I didn't want to screw my partner who hadn't cleaned tons of severely traversing pitches, (and maybe I didn't want to risk a 80 foot fall into a corner)

We always have control over our own style.


cantwinifyoudontplay2003


Mar 1, 2003, 2:10 AM
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I am all for the clean up of the broken pins......sounds great... But I myself will be much too busy on another route......I say climb it and forget it......


rockprodigy


Mar 4, 2003, 11:54 AM
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I'm all for preserving history, but I'm skeptical of the real motives here. It's seems to me like the real reason you want to do this is so that you can keep a handful of gumbies out of the highly selective club of Zodiac climbers. Why do you care if it's easier for some wanker to get up Zodiac? It's not like it's considered to be any kind of test piece!

Seriously...do you have that much free time? If you want to show everyone how great you are, take your free time and energy and make a statement with a new route, not by chopping an old one. How about a ground up, no fixed ropes, FA in the himalaya, or Alaska? With so much new climbing to be done, why are you so concerned with one route in yosemite?

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