|
wigglestick
Feb 7, 2003, 7:54 PM
Post #1 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 1235
|
My mom told me about this product after she heard about it from one of her hockey playing buddies. http://www.sportlegs.com/about/welcome.asp
It sounds like it may work but I got C's in Biology and Chemistry so I was hoping some of you more knowledgeable people *cough* *cough* jt512 *cough* would be able to tell me if there is any truth behind the claims of the company.
|
|
|
|
|
katydid
Feb 7, 2003, 9:36 PM
Post #2 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2002
Posts: 3212
|
I don't buy it. Eat right (make sure you got all your vitamins and minerals), drink lots of water.
If your muscles are burning, you're either working them really hard (outside your comfort zone) or you've got lactic acid buildup. Water takes care of the latter. Training eventually takes care of the former.
My 3 cents CDN.
k.
|
|
|
|
|
twospoons
Feb 8, 2003, 1:15 AM
Post #3 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 14, 2003
Posts: 18
|
i wouldnt bother with it
first off by doing regular exercise you will delay the onset of muscle fatigue naturally by increasing your oxygen intake and capillaries.
i skim read it and noticed it mentioned calcium and magnesium - magnesium is good for cramps and cramp prevention - but burning is lactic acid build up as katydid said.
as for calcium- it plays an important part in muscle contraction, however if it finds its way outside of the muscle it can act as a catabolic agent.
in 2 words: dont bother
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Feb 8, 2003, 2:09 AM
Post #4 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
I have heard that there is a surgery that some motocross racers (who get forearm pumpage even worse than climbers) get, that opens up the veins and increases bloodflow through the arms. No clue if this is true, or if any climbers have tried it.
|
|
|
|
|
camhead
Feb 8, 2003, 2:30 AM
Post #5 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 10, 2001
Posts: 20939
|
I stand corrected. I guess that all the surgery was in vein! (sorry, dumb joke)
|
|
|
|
|
estherator
Feb 8, 2003, 10:21 PM
Post #6 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2002
Posts: 526
|
In a nutshell, your blood pH is self-regulating. When the pH drops, during exercise, due to the dumping of lactic acid into the bloodstream, receptors pick up that information, and through the nervous system, it is relayed to the respiratory centers in the brain, which in turn, stimulates increased breathing rate and depth on in/exhalations. Carbonic acid in the blood is blown out as CO2, restoring pH to normal. It happens that fast. Claiming that the supplement increases pH, and hence "pulls" the lactic acid out of the muscle sounds like much quackery to me: the body strives to maintain homeostasis and will fight anything that alters something so vital (and delicate-the window is very small)as the pH of the blood.
A side note-always look at the references. All research appears to be funded by the company making/selling the product. Proper research will be listed as coming from a peer reviewed journal, e.g. JAMA, NE Journal of Medicine, or Journal of Appl. Phys.
If you are interested in supplements that aid recovery, look into creatine and glutamine. The research has been consistently proving the value of these two supplements for several years. If you would like more details on them I'd be happy to post.
|
|
|
|
|
wyomingclimber
Feb 9, 2003, 10:49 PM
Post #7 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 152
|
Seems like a lot of mumbo jumbo to me.
There is, I think, some reasonable research suggesting that sodium bicarbonate and sodium phosphate may help buffer lactic acid (Twinlab's Phos Fuel is an example of a product designed around this theory.)
The improvement would be pretty small, though. I would think less than 10%. So unless you're a very elite climber, I can't imagine you'd notice a difference.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 10, 2003, 3:24 AM
Post #8 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Quote:
In a nutshell, your blood pH is self-regulating. When the pH drops, during exercise, due to the dumping of lactic acid into the bloodstream, receptors pick up that information, and through the nervous system, it is relayed to the respiratory centers in the brain, which in turn, stimulates increased breathing rate and depth on in/exhalations.
True, but lactic acid does accumulate in muscles, which causes fatigue. Bicarbonate supplementation has been shown to delay the onset of lactic-acid--induced fatigue, accompanied by the unfortunate side effect of explosive diarrhea. Lactate (which is what this "sportlegs" stuff is) could possibly similarly buffer lactic acid. I think lactate has been tested and I have some research on it in the office -- I don't recall whether the results were favorable or not, but I'll check.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
wigglestick
Feb 10, 2003, 3:48 PM
Post #9 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2001
Posts: 1235
|
Thanks everybody for the information. And Jay, I will be interested in whatever additional information you come up with. How is this stuff different than other products like Endurox R4? I know Endurox R4 is supposed to be taken post-exercise and this sportlegs stuff is supposed to be taken before you workout. I have had moderate success with Endurox R4 in the past but it seems that sportlegs also improves performance during exercise and isn't just a recovery tool.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 10, 2003, 4:46 PM
Post #10 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
I thought I had some research on lactate supplementation here in my office, but I don't. I'd suggest that you try searching pubmed at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed for clinical trials on the product's purported active ingredients or else ask the manufacturer for citations to said trials. If none exist, don't waste your money.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jhump
Feb 10, 2003, 5:10 PM
Post #11 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 7, 2002
Posts: 602
|
Also check out Twight's Extreme Alpinism for info on lactate supplementation.
|
|
|
|
|
sportlegs
Feb 11, 2003, 12:25 AM
Post #12 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2003
Posts: 9
|
Swallow SportLegs, not someone else's fears. I recall French scientists successfully delayed introduction of Britain's new steam locomotive in their country by five years, after "proving" to the King that transporting humans faster than 35 MPH would crush them like bugs. It's perplexing that folks adventurous enough to put up new routes could so fear and mistrust a new pill that will almost certainly improve your climbing (and other sports) experience. If it's merely the price that frightens you, we'll remove it for the month of February '03: If you e-mail us at info@sportlegs.com, we'll mail you a couple of free samples of SportLegs to test for yourselves.
[ This Message was edited by: sportlegs on 2003-02-10 16:27 ]
|
|
|
|
|
wyomingclimber
Feb 11, 2003, 2:54 AM
Post #13 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 152
|
Apparently the king was too inbred to realize horses can run faster than this.
I think it's a reasonable policy to give some consideration to what you swallow on the advice of a guy with a blue mohawk.
I'm not saying it doesn't work, but I am saying there's a good chance it doesn't. I mean, if there was a safe (and legal) pill you could take to significantly postpone (or buffer) the effects of lactic acid, it seems like it would be almost immediately in wide use. The world of pro athletics is a surprisingly small one.
Give it a shot, though. What the heck...
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 11, 2003, 4:32 AM
Post #14 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
sportlegs wrote...[basically].
In other words, the product is untested. It's a sham.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
sportlegs
Feb 12, 2003, 6:55 AM
Post #15 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2003
Posts: 9
|
Jay, it's easy to dismiss SportLegs as a sham unless you've tried it. SportLegs is untested... by you. Dozens of new users are discovering every day how they can safely sidestep the "burn" during Alpine and Nordic skiing. Bicycling. Soccer. Within the scope of the current forum, people have told us it's a safe training aid, helping them train harder, longer, before the "burn" forces them to stop. Even cautious high school coaches are evaluating it for their teams. So again, please evaluate SportLegs fairly for free (see above) before you continue to deride something that's honestly helping a lot of people enjoy their sports more.
|
|
|
|
|
katydid
Feb 12, 2003, 1:18 PM
Post #16 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2002
Posts: 3212
|
Could you point us to some double-blind studies on your product, sportlegs? Otherwise we don't have any evidence that this success you describe is due to anything but the placebo effect.
Thanks,
Kate
|
|
|
|
|
dynomaster
Feb 12, 2003, 2:44 PM
Post #17 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Posts: 124
|
I think we should stop speculating about this product, and try it. As long as it's free, I'm willing to give it a try!
Dyno On
Andy
|
|
|
|
|
sportlegs
Feb 12, 2003, 3:16 PM
Post #18 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2003
Posts: 9
|
Kate, you're welcome to take a look at the info on our website, www.sportlegs.com. Bottom line, researchers have been looking at lactates for awhile, because they have this interesting effect. Studies have dismissed it because it shows "no significant performance improvement." Funny thing, though: In those studies which also noted "perceived exertion", test subjects reported significantly less PE. They dismissed the "side effect" as inconsequential. We stumbled across the same effect and thought it rocked. And so does everyone who tries Sportlegs. We started marketing them as SkiLegs 2 years ago, and have always sold them with a money-back guarantee. No buyer has asked for their money back. Many have reordered, and have sent us the frankly embarrassing testimonials you can read on our site. If that's a placebo effect, it sure seems unanimous. Why not e-mail us at info@sportlegs.com for your free sample (thru Feb '03 only), and see what YOU think?
|
|
|
|
|
csoles
Feb 12, 2003, 8:51 PM
Post #19 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2002
Posts: 329
|
Typical snake oil site. Lots of testimonials from people with zero credibility. All of the research is conducted by George A Brooks, who holds the patent (and owns the company?). He appears to be a good researcher at Berkley but hasn't done much work on his own product according to Medline. Only one published study that is over a decade old, had a small sample size (5), and did not use the marketed product. No independent studies comparing the actual product sold against anything (maybe it works but no better than cheaper options). So basically, you got a lot of explaining to do before a free sample is even worth the bother.
|
|
|
|
|
sportlegs
Feb 13, 2003, 2:39 AM
Post #20 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2003
Posts: 9
|
Not worth FREE? Oh, behave. Prof. Brooks is in no way affiliated with SportLegs. He's merely a maverick former AAU runner who had the brass to disprove what he felt was inadequate lactic acid theory. Brooks has coordinated and contributed more to our understanding of lactate metabolism than anyone in the preceding 50 years. His "lactate shuttle" theory, initially derided, is now regarded as definitive. Excerpts on our website are from his exercise physiology textbook, by permission of the publisher.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 13, 2003, 3:29 AM
Post #21 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Quote:
So again, please evaluate SportLegs fairly for free [by].
The problem is that you can't evaluate a product fairly just by trying it, unless you conduct your own blind, placebo-controlled study on yourself. A person's performance varies day to day. We've all experienced it. If I were to try your product and my performance improved, I'd have no way of knowing whether the improvement was an effect of the product, or would have happened anyway. This is precisely why placebo-controlled studies are absolutely necessary.
It is also why your testimonials, as Clyde Soles suggests, are meaningless. A population of athletes, whose performance is varying naturally, takes the product. Even if the product is worthless (or even moderately harmful), some proportion of the population will improve while taking the product, and incorrectly attribute the imporvement to the product. Hucksters such as yourself take advantage of the public's ignorance of these phenomena to make a buck.
If your product is so good, test it properly and publish the results.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
rprp
Feb 13, 2003, 5:20 PM
Post #22 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 27, 2002
Posts: 211
|
Following up on Jay, there is also a reporting bias. The people who give it a try and don't find it does much are mostly just going to stop and forget about it. They won't be writing to the company with glowing testimonials about how it did--nothing!
|
|
|
|
|
sportlegs
Feb 15, 2003, 3:08 AM
Post #23 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2003
Posts: 9
|
Jay, that's honestly good advice. But until we can afford that chunk of change, we'll have to hope our customers continue to be persuaded by our money-back guarantee, the safety of our ingredients, the honesty of our customer testimonials, our minor celebrity endorsements, their friends' thumbs-up, and their own great experiences. A positive research study will indeed add credibility. But Jay, you've turned down an opportunity to try the stuff for free. It's hard to imagine a research outcome rosy enough to get you to take the Jumar off your wallet to actually pay for some.
Some people, you just can't please. It's a shame, because everybody else that tries our stuff is having more fun. And life is short. Fun is rare. So go have some. It's Valentine's Day, after all.
Best to you folks that have written to info@sportlegs.com for samples. Offer still stands through February '03. Please try 'em for training or climbing, and please share your results here for your more skeptical comrades.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 16, 2003, 3:59 AM
Post #24 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
Quote:
It's hard to imagine a research outcome rosy enough to get you to take the Jumar off your wallet to actually pay for some.
Then you don't have much imagination. Do Medline searches for "glucosamine" and "creatine." I take both those supplements because they've shown promise in clinical trials.
Quote:
Some people, you just can't please.
Some people, you just can't fool.
Quote:
...everybody else that tries our stuff is having more fun.
Pure bull$#!&.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2003-02-15 20:28 ]
|
|
|
|
|
naitch
Feb 25, 2003, 6:46 PM
Post #25 of 46
(8252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2002
Posts: 539
|
Just got our free samples of Sportlegs and the stuff does seem to work according to our inital subjective testing. My 16 son was in a comp on Sat. and didn't use the stuff and toatlly burned out by the end of the day. He had another one on Monday at aother univiersity wall that he has climbed on before. He usually can only do two climbs before the burn sets in. He was sore when he first started but took the Sportlegs about a half hour before the comp started. He did a total of 8 at his upper limit and said that it was amazing how he felt. He didn't feel the burn until the seventh climb which was an overhanging route.
I personally haven't tried it yet. I'll wait until I can get outside in a couple weeks. However, after my son's first inital subjective testing, it does seem like it helps - at least according to him. In fact I had to hide the stuff from him or I was afraid he'd use it up before I got to try it! :?
Naitch
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
