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fritzski
Feb 14, 2003, 2:43 AM
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After reading a previous post, I'm assuming that "zippering" normally occurs from the bottom up and that is the reason for the opposition piece. Sounds like it can occur in other ways - are there any other techniques to employ which could help avoid such a disaster?
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petsfed
Feb 14, 2003, 2:59 AM
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Yeah, if you have a series of marginal to outright $#!&ty placements, then if you fall, each piece will blow in series until one finally holds, or you hit the ground.
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socalclimber
Feb 14, 2003, 3:43 AM
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Yeah, that was nicely put. I might add a note about the oppositional piece at the bottom. The idea is not exactly to have a primary piece in opposition at the bottom. You won't always get that. What you want to shoot for is to have the first piece not pointing straight down, and you want your belayer directly under you if at all possible. The key here is angles. At the best possible case, your belayer (and the rope) running as straight as possible. For example, you don't want your belayer 20 feet back from the first piece that just happens to be set for a downward pull. This will cause the "zipper" effect, upwards.
Am I being clear, or did I just totaly confuse the topic?
Robert
[ This Message was edited by: socalclimber on 2003-02-13 19:46 ]
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fritzski
Feb 14, 2003, 4:07 AM
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Thanks. I think I have a reak good concept of what you're saying. If your bottom piece is stable not only downward, but also against an outward pull, be it from an oppositional piece or just a placement that lends itself, then the rope going taught between the belayer and that piece won't cause it to pop when it rotates outward.
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jt512
Feb 14, 2003, 4:35 AM
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I'm going to disagree about the belayer standing directly under the first piece protecting that piece from an outward and upward pull if the leader falls. It just doesn't. I took a fall leading Exorcist at J Tree recently. I had about three pieces in. Spike was belaying on the ledge at the base of the crack. He artfully dynamically belayed the fall and came to rest about a foot off the ledge. Looking down from my resting spot, I could see that the first piece had rotated up, despite his being positioned right at the base of the crack. An unopposed nut would likely have pulled out.
-Jay
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fritzski
Feb 14, 2003, 5:05 AM
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I can totally see what jt512 is saying: although it is optimum to have the belayer directly beneath, unless its an overhang, the physical restraints of the rock will force the belayer out to at least some angle and this could easily be enough to rotate the piece.
I will say, however, that the decreased angle would definitely start to be a huge advantage once the "zipper" effect proceeded to the second piece and beyond where it (the angle) would begin to approach zero.
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camhead
Feb 14, 2003, 5:09 AM
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whether your belayer is directly under you or out from the rock, the first piece should be multidirectional. hell, if the climb looks like it will wonder, I may even make a little two piece anchor at the bottom just to ensure that it doesn't pop out. make sense?
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socalclimber
Feb 14, 2003, 12:21 PM
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I completely agree with all the above statements. Remember, I was simply stating that you may not always get that nifty oppositional in. This is one reason I don't really like stoppers as a first piece either. A cam placed to handle a more outward pull has a far better chance of not pulling than a stopper.
Once again, I refer back to angles. The dreaded zipper effect can start in the middle if the angle of the route changes and the leader didn't account for it with proper length slings.
Hi Jay! Another rec.climber.
Robert Fonda
[ This Message was edited by: socalclimber on 2003-02-14 04:24 ]
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texplorer
Feb 14, 2003, 7:26 PM
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I agree, go with a cam as your first piece when possible
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