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johnhenry
Feb 24, 2003, 4:38 AM
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Today, I was out aid boldering behind the University of Hawaii when I discovered a fatal flaw in my Russian Aider set-up. :shock:
I was hang off a #2 Lost Arrow bounce testing a 1/2# angle when the piece I was on blew (hey that's why I am practicing). The result was a daisy chain fall onto the untested angle. The angle held but I almost cratered due to the way I had my Aiders rigged.
I was clipping my adjustable daisies into the top loop of the aid-trier (in addition to having my lead oval on there). The fall tore two out of the three rows of stiching out. I think if I was stouter or the shock was any more, I would have torn out this last bar for sure.
I knew that you should never clip anything to pull directly on the stiched end of a loop (such as the sewn eye of a web-o-lette) but I did'nt really think about this in regard to my aid-trier. At any rate, clip your daisies directly into you lead 'beaner or watch your system disentigrate.
By the way, I have a pair of Russ's new Russian aid-triers in addition to my Trango ones (which beautifully match Metolius Adjustable daisies). Russ has good craftsmanship but the similar three bar stitching in the top loop. I blew the stiching on my yellow Trango one. Russ can you sew me back up?
At any rate, learn from a freshman and Rock On!!!
John
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apollodorus
Feb 24, 2003, 4:46 AM
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Russ is NOT Trango. Russ is Da MAN. Russ is the Real Deal: a hard-core guy who's been Walling longer than most of you have been alive.
I'm not surprised at all that the other, fake gear companies have garbage that fails.
They've never been on the Wall.
Russ has been Walling since before he was born. And he's not about to let you guys down.
www.fishproducts.com
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passthepitonspete
Feb 24, 2003, 6:26 AM
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{Sigh} Now if only I could get a new bed for my portaledge... [HINT]
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gawd
Feb 24, 2003, 6:51 AM
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In reply to: Russ is NOT Trango. Russ is Da MAN. Russ is the Real Deal: a hard-core guy who's been Walling longer than most of you have been alive. I'm not surprised at all that the other, fake gear companies have garbage that fails. They've never been on the Wall. Russ has been Walling since before he was born. And he's not about to let you guys down. www.fishproducts.com
the storkefest is ummm.........pathetic!
sorry, but it is.
i have the trango ones as well, whicj were sewn before fish was making theirs.
i am sure all those boys can handle them selves in the play yard.
i find mine best suited for alpine.
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spike
Mar 5, 2003, 11:21 PM
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Johnhenry
THANKS FOR THE INFO. !!!
With your input, I think you may have saved me from taking a big whippppppppppper. I rig my Russian aid ring trees the same way you do. I clip my YATES adjustable daisys into the top loop of the aid ring trees with a BD locking Enduro carabiner. And YES if you take a fall you could easily rip all the 3-bar tacks and pop off the wall. To fix the issue, I added an additional very small loop of webbing to the existing top loop of the aid ring tree. So now I run the locker through the top loop plus the very small loop of webbing. The small loop of webbing will not allow the locking carabiner to make contact with the bar tacks. Plus I run my Kong Oval carabiner through it also, the carabiner I use to clip protection with. I think someone said "just clip the adjustable daisy and aid ring tree" into the KONG Oval carabiner. I used to do it that way, until I lost a set of aid ring trees.
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johnhenry
Mar 7, 2003, 2:09 AM
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Spike, Right on! 8) That is a good idea with the small web loop. How is that set-up when you are aggresively bounce testing?
I am convinced that there has got to be another way to sew these things to avoid this problem though.
Ditto on the ineffectiveness of placing both the aid-tree and the daisy on the lead beaner.
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juansolo
Mar 7, 2003, 2:38 AM
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In reply to: I knew that you should never clip anything to pull directly on the stiched end of a loop (such as the sewn eye of a web-o-lette) but I did'nt really think about this in regard to my aid-trier.
So if you never want to pull directly on the stiched eye of the web-o-lette, what are the eyes for? This diagram from mtntools shows the 2 eyes of the web-o-lette as 2 of the three anchor ponits 'binered directly to bolts. I know anchors and aiding aren' the same but I'm still confused.
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twrock
Mar 7, 2003, 2:57 AM
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juansolo, in reference to your linked pic, it would be like placing another biner into the sewn loop of either end of the web-o-lette, pulling down on that biner and putting downward force directly on the stitching. This could blow out the stitching similar to a screamer activating. Certainly not recommended.
Sewing an additional strip of tape across the bottom of the of the loop on the aid-tree would solve this problem. I was planning on doing this back when I was making my own aid-trees, but it would be pretty hard to add to the ones I got from Russ; there's not enough space.
One could also sew a "grab loop" up through the protective piece of tube (similar to some traditional aiders) and allow for a clip-in point. I'm sure there are other possibilities.
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valygrl
Mar 7, 2003, 7:04 AM
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I am kind of new at this, but I'm not really seeing how clipping both the aider and the daisy into the same 'biner (the "lead biner") would make it more likely that you would lose something.
That's how I was taught how to do it. Could someone enlighten me?
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passthepitonspete
Mar 9, 2003, 1:52 PM
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Ideally, you need two carabiner connections with your daisies and your aiders. This ideal situation pre-supposes that you can actually fit two carabiners through the key aider connections, which is not always possible because not all aider manufacturers "get it."
The first thing you need is a locker to join your pair of aiders [or your one Russian Aider] to your [adjustable] daisy so you don't lose the aiders! There has to be NO WAY to drop the thing. [Speed climbers may take shortcuts here - I'm telling you the way so you won't drop anything]
The next thing you need is your lead carabiner [which you all know by now needs to be a toothless keylock type] to pass through both your daisy and your aider. This may not be possible if the openings in your daisy and your aiders are not big enough!
As far as I am aware, there is some problem in this setup using the Russians. I'm not sure if the problem is too small of an opening in the Russians for two crabs to fit through the same hole, or if the problem is too small a hole in the Metolius adjustable daisies I use.
Somehow there is a logical and safe way to solve this problem, because I've found it.
If I actually GO aid climbing down here in West Virginia in the next few days [a distinct possibility] I'll tell you what I do.
It's not rocket science - make sure your connection is strong, and that you can't drop your aiders.
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johnhenry
Apr 29, 2003, 9:28 PM
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"It's not rocket science..." Maybe not amigo, but what's wrong with this picture:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=7224
If you daisy chain fall, you will blast out your aider!
I think Spike has hit on the best solution. Can't wait for some valley action.
Rock On,
John
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coyoteblues
Apr 30, 2003, 1:57 AM
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Just another option (although Spike's way sounds good). Clip both the aider and the daisy into the lead biner. Then clip one of those mini accessory biners through both loops as well under the lead biner just to keep 'em together (there's even "locking" minis if you are going to obsess about it). This also gets rid of the extra length the locker adds to your daisy setup.
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johnhenry
Apr 30, 2003, 2:10 AM
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The problem is that you are really competing for space on an average oval. Russ's aid-triers are noticibly wider than Trango's and either the daisy or the aider will tend to creep up one secondary axis or the other. That is to say, the width of the daisy and aider is greater than the width at the bottom of most ovals.
Plus, I like to keep a cam hook, rivet hangers etc. on my lead beaner and this starts to get real cluttered real fast.
I think that regular aiders would also fail like the Russians if you clipped your daisies to the top eye.
Rock On,
John
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coyoteblues
Apr 30, 2003, 3:06 AM
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Agreed that making 'em different in the first place is the best solution.
I've got old-style adjustable daisies ("wide" at the clip-in loop) and my aiders are also wide. Typically one just slides over the other and they stay put. And adding the mini biner would make 'em stay overlapped. But yep, if you're going to add a lot of other stuff it won't solve all those problems.
BTW, other than just setting it up to see how it'd work, I haven't climbed with this option. So take everything with a grain of salt and if it don't work for you, toss it.
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