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tori
Feb 24, 2003, 6:25 AM
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in light of the accident on Mt.Hood last year I am wondering if people are questioning the merits of rope teams with less experienced climbers on slopes. personally i am into rock climbing and only want to climb basic alpine routes a few times per year. i am familiar with ice ax use and belay issues regarding glacier travel, rescue etc... from the climbing i have done on Mt.Hood and other similar volcanoes it seems that if you are comfortable on your feet, and with self arrest, it is best to go unroped, until the terrain gets steep enough to warrant a belay from an anchor, or at least a running belay. but from the one guided trip i was on, and from what i have seen on the mountain, it seems that many people still prefer to travel in teams of 3 or more roped together on fairly steep terrain. even if everyone hit the deck at the shout of "falling" it is still a contest to see if the first person to take the load can hold it in a self arrest position, if not it is 2 on one next time, then 3 on one, etc... without a rope on slightly steep slopes, if one person did fall and fail to self arrest you would have only 1 victim and a party of rescuers, better than a bundle of hurt people. so from my limited time in the snow i am getting the idea that on slopes i either don't want to be tied in, especially to strangers, or if the slope is bad enough to merit a rope than i want to just build anchors and belay each pitch. so i guess i am just wondering if there really is some safety margin gained from a team of "self arresting" marginally experienced climbers? thanks for any advice, tori
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kman
Feb 24, 2003, 2:37 PM
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Being unroped on a snow covered glacier is a pretty bad idea. Wouldn't want to fall into crevasse would you?!
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gawd
Feb 24, 2003, 4:25 PM
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kman,
you are ignorant to glacier climbing and that is fine.
the accident in which you mention, was that 3 large groups of inexperienced climbers where roped into large teams on a realitivly steep un crevassed slope. there is a bergshcrund at the base of this short final step to the summit. these groups being roped together is and was the cause of the accident.
i would prefer one person slipping and dying then the whole team or more then one team getting the chop.
if you are using running belays or pitching sections out then yes rope up. but without gear on a steeper slope, then certainly no rope.
now for straight glacier travel, for the most part you should rope in. here in the cascades this is more of an issue on the larger volcanic mtns. though the real danger with crevasses truly lies in late spring and early summer as the winter snow is consolidating and the glaicers are yawning. holes will open up and brigdes will weaken, and obviously the later in the day the more danger you are exposed to.
once the glacier becomes dry it is much easier and faster to move upon the mountain unroped.
rope with obvious crevasse hazard and belayed sections
no rope for dry glaciers and non-belayed sections
this is all of course is only my opinion on the subject. i only take in my personal ability and comfort levels.
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elvislegs
Feb 24, 2003, 5:28 PM
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As usual, Gawd has it right. This has been discussed in depth in this and other forums so I won't elaborate. But I believe that in the Hood incident those climbers should not have been roped, and might have lived if they were ropeless.
Not to be condescending, but for me, the solution is to do more difficult and less traveled routes that fewer climbers are on, (and most of the time more experienced climbers). However, if I am on moderate terrain and feel I need to rope up, why not pound in a picket or place a screw or two and simulclimb?
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kman
Feb 25, 2003, 12:49 AM
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eh...ignorant to the facts of the incident on Mt. Hood yes. Don't have details to comment on it. Pehaps I should have elaborated more...just lazy today. Yes there are times when a rope can be bad. Depends on the situation.
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petsfed
Feb 25, 2003, 1:40 AM
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That they roped up was not what killed them per se. What did kill them is not placing any pickets, screws, flukes, bollards (they might have been really slow...), thus rendering the rope a high stretch anchor cable. Simul climbing is dangerous to begin with, but the rule is at least one piece of pro between climbers. I knew when I heard about that accident somebody f**ked up big. 6 climbers (?) in one crevasse! Even a 'schrund. C'mon!
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michael crowder
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Mar 4, 2003, 7:25 PM
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just a few years ago, i don't know if this still holds true, the number one accident profile for north american mountaineering was this person on average. "a 37 year old male with more than 10 years of climbing experience while climbing unroped on snow." that hit home because i was 37 when i read it. 3 years later i still travel unroped on snow a good bit. i am also the last person in any group to put on crampons. i may pay for this some day but it makes me much more efficient. at some point you have to rope up if there are lots and lots of hidden crevaces. i would never cross the columbia ice field or the carbon glacier unroped but have little problems doing the same thing in the tetons during the late season or south america. winter in the alps everything fills up but in the summer some glaciers can become a challenge. you just have to evaluate each situation sparately and try to err on the conservative side.
most of my glacier travel is unroped with a mountaineering axe in the uphill hand and a trecking pole in the down hill hand and no rope. as long as i don't step into a pit i can self arrest and in areas of high travel you bet the odds that if it held the last person it will hold you.
michael
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tori
Mar 5, 2003, 7:08 AM
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Registered: Feb 23, 2003
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thanks for all the advice, i am into the rope for glacier and crevasse travel, it is the use on the slope without protection that i was questioning. i just got done reading freedom of the hills again and that also helped me understand the issue. i just was running into too many novice climbers who keep talking about roping up in the "team arrest" mode like it is some miracle. freedom describes how limited the benefits of this practice really are. if it is steep enough that i am concerned that somebody is going to slide all the way to hell, then the answer is not only a rope, but pickets as well. thanks
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micahmcguire
Mar 11, 2003, 11:17 PM
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Living in the Chugach and dealing with bloody glaciers on a regular basis, I have to say that the most nightmarish way to die would probably be to slip into a hole or crevasse into a glacier and get swept away by freezing melt water. Eww, no thanks, I'll go roped.
PS, elvislegs, that "unpossible" quote was made by Chief Clancy Wiggum, not Ralphie
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naturalhigh
Mar 31, 2003, 1:38 PM
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Registered: Jul 24, 2001
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the self-arrest is just that - a SELF arrest
Arresting the fall of a climber into a crevasse is one thing, trying to stop someone with a 30' head-start down 50degree blue-ice is something else.
My rule of thumb when faced with a dicey slope: If I doubt my own ability to easily arrest on the slope, un-rope or simul-climb with screws/pickets. If I know I can easily arrest and stop another climber's fall, stay roped up (in interest of time). Sometimes simul-climbing a slope can be faster than un-roping and soloing.
In particular to the Mt Hood incident.... I always hike that slope unroped or if I'm with a wobblie, simul-climb it. And I ALWAYS make sure there is no-one immediately below me or above me. Wait your freaking turn - it's extremely rude and dangerous (as those climbers found out) to "cross-ropes" with another team on dicey ground. You want to hike the easy route, you gotta be prepared to deal with the crowds. I was shocked when no less than a month later, people were still clogging up the slope, with roped teams stacked one above the other, just another accident waiting to happen.
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