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caughtinside
Feb 26, 2003, 7:01 AM
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Hmm, I was listening to some Santa Cruz AM radio on the internet this morning, and someone there said that the girl in question was an illegal immigrant.
In regards to the earlier discussion of media distortion, if this is true, why wasn't it in the mainstream media? I think this should raise some questions about donee lists, and why someone from outside the country gets two hearts and two kidneys.
Keep in mind that these organs come from americans. There are lots of critically ill americans waiting for organs, and since we have a treaty that does not allow us to bring organs into the country, I'm not sure we should be giving our scarce resource to those who don't live here.
In addition, I still think it would be a bad idea to suspend the doctor for any length of time. People who are skilled enough to perform such a complicated operation are also a scarce resource
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enigma
Feb 26, 2003, 7:15 AM
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If they don't suspend the person responsible or take away there license then it is liable to happen again.
It will be thought of as trivial and the next doctor/nurse/hospital worker who makes the same mistake will be granted immunity from punitive actions.
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climbsomething
Feb 26, 2003, 7:54 AM
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I hope this doesn't sound morose or too random, but in light of the "waste" perception of not one but 2 sets of "rare" (heart-lung from child) organs... can the set of type-O organs be transplanted again? You know, removed from the girl and used for another child who needs them? I ask, because per the story PTE linked, the organs were functioning fine despite the girl being fatally brain damaged. Just a question.
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curt
Feb 26, 2003, 3:38 PM
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Although each is entitled to his/her opinion, Enigma's first post here is easily the most stupid thing I have ever seen. This was a mistake, a truly bad mistake--but still nothing more.
And--there is indeed more to the story.
In reply to: Hmm, I was listening to some Santa Cruz AM radio on the internet this morning, and someone there said that the girl in question was an illegal immigrant. In regards to the earlier discussion of media distortion, if this is true, why wasn't it in the mainstream media? I think this should raise some questions about donee lists, and why someone from outside the country gets two hearts and two kidneys.
This is a fact. This girl was smuggled into the US illegally to get onto an organ donor list. Why is this not prominent in the media? Simple, in our twisted "politically correct" society, even mention of this fact results in the accusation of racism.
Also,
In reply to: I hope this doesn't sound morose or too random, but in light of the "waste" perception of not one but 2 sets of "rare" (heart-lung from child) organs... can the set of type-O organs be transplanted again? You know, removed from the girl and used for another child who needs them? I ask, because per the story PTE linked, the organs were functioning fine despite the girl being fatally brain damaged. Just a question.
You won't hear much about this either but this is an unbelievable fact. The organs were functioning fine when this girl died. Her parents REFUSED to let the organs be used again!!! So, this girl can come here (illegally) get two sets of heart/lung organs and then, when the possibility of saving other lives came about at the time of her death, her parents have the astonishing nerve to deny her organs (including the heart/lungs) for donation.
In my opinion, they should not have even had the choice. The heart and lungs came from someone else. upon this girl's death, they should have been removed for use in another person, who may die without them.
Curt
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enigma
Feb 26, 2003, 7:15 PM
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Curt-I happen to have alot of knowledge that I cannot disclose in reference to this case ,it is confidental
If it makes you feel smart, calling my post stupid then your more pathetic than I had thought.
I hope one day in your life you don't experience a wrongful death of someone whom you love, so you won't have to understand the gross neglience and incompetence of this childs death.
You honestly have no idea of what went on in this case, since there is legal action pending, I cannot release the details. You only know what the media has told you, (beware of what you have heard:!:)
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wigglestick
Feb 26, 2003, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: Curt-I happen to have alot of knowledge that I cannot disclose in reference to this case ,it is confidental
Enigma, are you really trying to invoke some kind of privilege here? Even on a post that you started? I think somebody has been watching too much Law and Order. This is getting funnier by the moment.
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calamity_chk
Feb 26, 2003, 7:43 PM
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i say good riddance .. the world is over-populated anyways. besides, that kid was probably a sinner.
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camhead
Feb 26, 2003, 7:48 PM
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enigma's a lawyer? you know what I say about lawyers...
hehe.
the illegal immigrant factor, if it is true, should be completely irrelevent. medicine is privatized, duh, and not a function of the government, so why should it be limited to taxpayers only?
if, however, her parents let the organs go to waste (and that sounds like a bit of a hearsay myth anyway), that is a serious moral outrage, and they should be hit by a completely nondemoninational and natural lightening bolt.
I actually have a friend who specified on his drivers license that he would NOT be an organ donor. "I'll fight overpopulation by any legal means," he said. I wish I had that kind of conviction.
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sushislayer
Feb 26, 2003, 7:53 PM
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I haven't read the entire thread so I apologize if this has already been stated:
If I needed an organ transplant, I'd lay down on that doctor's table in an instant. He will be doubly sure of all of his details prior to any operation in the future.
It is a truly sad event when a young person loses their life. This young lady would have lost her life if the transplant wasn't attempted, what she was being offered was a SECOND chance at life.
There are no guarantees in medicine, heck even the license says that right on it. It is a license to PRACTICE medicine.
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sushislayer
Feb 26, 2003, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: If they don't suspend the person responsible or take away there license then it is liable to happen again. It will be thought of as trivial and the next doctor/nurse/hospital worker who makes the same mistake will be granted immunity from punitive actions. ~enigma
I cannot accept that you may be so well educated yet believe this riduculous statement.
Do you truly think doctors take their work lightly? Do you really think while they are operating on a patent that they are thinking, "Gee, I gotta do this right or I may face punitive action later..." instead of "I gotta do this right, there's a life in the balance and I truly want to save this patient's life in line with my vow to 'do no harm'"?
It is liable to happen again. No matter the threat of punitive actions that may result. It is liable to happen again because doctors, despite their position of high regard are still underneath that sacred white coat, human.
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madriver
Feb 26, 2003, 8:06 PM
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Paul
A lawyer and a Transplant Doctor were on the tube last night disscussing this case. The Doctor said that in fact he probably would not have done the transplant if he had know she was an illegal. The reason they have discression over transplants is due to their (organs) limited availibility and they have to insure the patient has the ability or means to pay for the follow up. I.E-if they can't monitor and treat the patient to insure a reasonable chance of survival they won't do it. It was an interesting disscussion.
Bob
edited for spelling...I think
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madriver
Feb 26, 2003, 8:11 PM
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C.C wrote...
In reply to: i say good riddance .. the world is over-populated anyways. besides, that kid was probably a sinner.
Signed...
E. Scrooge :mrgreen:
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wildtrail
Feb 26, 2003, 9:22 PM
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Enigma,
I have a hard time believing you went to law school.
#1 I took some law myself and I haven't seen you use any of its jargon. Not even once. No injunctions or stipulations, subpeonas, summons, etc.
#2 No offense, but the arguements of yours that you talk about are far less than articulate. Some of them aren't even legible and often confusing. Hardly the quality of someone that went to law school.
My mom worked in the legal field for over 40 years, and I too, have worked for a few attorneys. Not to mention been in court with these attorneys, and for myself. (oops)
I am capable of writing business contracts and deciphering statutes (I took Business/Contractual Law).
All I'm saying is, and I realize all this is insulting to you (just trying to point out facts, that's all), that if you went to law school, you should seriously edit your arguements because they make no sense from time to time. Also, not unlike me, you often don't get your point across.
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daisuke
Feb 26, 2003, 9:59 PM
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the smallest things lead to the biggest problems, this whole case is the same thing as what happened with that mars satelite that was lost because the engineers used inches instead of centimeters.
what´s done is done and her death will certainly help that it never happens again, especially if it ever comes down to it being "your kid" and let us all hope we never have to go thru that
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matt
Feb 27, 2003, 12:51 AM
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shakylegs: awesome post! Great info...simply facinating.
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madriver
Feb 27, 2003, 1:20 AM
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Shaky wrote..
In reply to: There's also the deal of mood swings (severe), depression, suicidal tendancies (at first) and, oh yeah, that lovely little thing called guilt, which, her most likely being Catholic, would be horrendous. Therefore, she would have needed a very strong social support system.
You got the guilt thing right...but..we definetly have the strong social support thing going for us..!! L.O.L...!! :lol:
Signed..
Guilt by association.. :D
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climbsomething
Feb 27, 2003, 4:16 AM
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Very interesting contribution, shaky. Appreciated!
Now, I feel like stirring the pot a little.
The attitude here IS a bit "cavalier," in my perhaps "bleeding heart" opinion. Mistakes happen- right. Punching the wrong speed-dial on my cell phone is a mistake. This is more than a wee mistake. I wonder if perhaps the full-court press in this thread is 1) simply to antagonize the original poster, who isn't the most "popular kid in school," and 2) a stand against the teenager's illegal immigrant status. I hope I am not too much of a simpleton to say that if this was an American patient (blone haired-blue eyed OR an American-born Mexican, like myself or my mother), we'd be collectively a little more pissed off. I don't believe for a second that everybody here who shrugs and says "they're human" would say that in such an "eh" way if the dead patient were "their child," (forgive the hackneyed example) or even a fellow citizen they'd never met. Bullshit!
Yes, the doctors ARE human, I do not argue that; yes, suing for zillions of dollars will NOT bring back a lost life, I do not argue that. But come on, these are cliches that are easily said at a distance. If Duke university hosts one of the best hospitals in the nation, then why can't they get a blood type right? These are just NOT the things to screw up and be able to say "oh, noops, human foible." I hope it's not an unreasonable standard to hold an Ivy league-trained doctor to to know my blood type (O+ by the way, so if a doc screws it up now you guys know). He doesn't have to be perfect or superhuman or have X-ray eyes that can diagnose an internal malady by sight, but at least SOME fundamentals should be wired.
That said, I do not think any of the doctors/surgeons/transplant team should be criminally punished. This was negligence and a mortifying clusterf*ck, but not criminal. I agree that the medical professionals involved will be emotionally wounded for life, and that is all the punishment they need. Tossing them in jail is not the proper reaction.
But "aw, they're human" ain't enough. I haven't been to law school and I don't even watch Law & Order, but I think they'll need a stronger defense than that.
Now, ignoring all political ingredients here, this whole case is a pain for humanity's sake, and I hope we can all agree on that. I have no idea what enigma's motivations were in starting this thread, but I suspect simple humanitarian outrage, even if not well-articulated, may at least be the major component. A dead child. Wherever that child died, however, whoever, and whoever the blame falls on, that's sad. That she did not get to enjoy a full life makes me sad, and that 2 other children who need heart-lung transplants may not get them is sad too.
But somebody around here is gonna disagree with me! And perhaps ferociously too. So have at it!
*crawls under fire blanket*
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climbsomething
Feb 27, 2003, 4:20 AM
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I meant to type Bull-s___! there, but I guess the auto-censor decided to snip the "bull" part too ;) (heh heh... snip the bull... it's a steer now... ok, RANDOM!)
Back to your regularly-scheduled flaming :P
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matt
Feb 27, 2003, 4:48 AM
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In reply to: Yes, the doctors ARE human, I do not argue that; yes, suing for zillions of dollars will NOT bring back a lost life, I do not argue that. But come on, these are cliches that are easily said at a distance. If Duke university hosts one of the best hospitals in the nation, then why can't they get a blood type right? These are just NOT the things to screw up and be able to say "oh, noops, human foible." I hope it's not an unreasonable standard to hold an Ivy league-trained doctor to to know my blood type (O+ by the way, so if a doc screws it up now you guys know). He doesn't have to be perfect or superhuman or have X-ray eyes that can diagnose an internal malady by sight, but at least SOME fundamentals should be wired.
This all assumes, of course, that the doctors are the ones that made that mistake. However, upon a little research, and for those of you that won't research it, thanks to shakylegs you too can know that the doctor most likely was scrubbing up when that error was made, therefore making the entire blood issue, a call he did not make.
Enigma: you don't have any "confidential, privledged" information, and if you did you wouldn't be talking about it over the internet. Also, you're not an attorney for or relating to this dead girl. 1) The family would never have chosen an attorney by now. 2) Even if they had chosen an attorney, it's way to early to file, especially with the Statue of Limitations being 4years in North Carolina, they have plenty of time to file so they will get things right, versus doing that in a rush now, screwing the filing up, and getting rights waivered.
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climbsomething
Feb 27, 2003, 4:54 AM
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OK push, point taken, I guess some of us are using the term "doctor" a little too loosely. Still, *anybody* entrusted to a role in a delicate organ transplant should not be biffing a fundamental like blood type. Doctor or nurse or... whoever.
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curt
Feb 27, 2003, 6:47 AM
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Enigma,
"Curt-I happen to have alot of knowledge that I cannot disclose in reference to this case ,it is confidental"
If it makes you feel smart, calling my post stupid then your more pathetic than I had thought."
I did not say your post was stupid to make myself feel smart. I called it stupid because it was stupid.
"I hope one day in your life you don't experience a wrongful death of someone whom you love, so you won't have to understand the gross neglience and incompetence of this childs death."
I certainly hope you will enlighten all of as to how you know for certain that this was a "wrongful death" an not just a tragic mistake. As you are aware (as I am sure, since you claim to be an expert with inside information) the survival odds of a person in this girl's condition undergoing a dual heart/lung transplant is roughly 50 percent.
So, even if everything went perfectly--with the proper blood typed organs, her life was basically a flip of the coin.
"You honestly have no idea of what went on in this case, since there is legal action pending, I cannot release the details. You only know what the media has told you, (beware of what you have heard:!"
No, and I don't believe that you have any idea either. I however, do not believe that everything reported in the press that I have posted to this thread is false. But, I suppose that vast conspiracy is part of the priveliged information you have unique access to.
Also, this point by climbsomething matters.
"OK push, point taken, I guess some of us are using the term "doctor" a little too loosely. Still, *anybody* entrusted to a role in a delicate organ transplant should not be biffing a fundamental like blood type. Doctor or nurse or... whoever."
The doctors performing the transplant have reason to believe that the transplant organs arriving for an operation are correct in terms of tissue match and blood type, etc. They are not responsible for rechecking this immediately prior to surgery. But, in your infinite medical and legal wisdom, I am sure you know this.
Curt
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sushislayer
Feb 27, 2003, 9:26 AM
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Of course it is much easier to look at this situation from a distance and say things like, "It was just a terrible mistake." That's a given. Of course the relatives of the girl are going to be much more distarught over this than am I, some stranger on an internet forum. I must say though, I have no qualms about the girl being an immigrant, legal or otherwise. Her life has just as much value as another's whose papers have been stamped by the INS as "approved."
That said, this is how I see the situation.
We all have jobs and activities that we do and we, as humans, make occassional mistakes while engaged in such activities. I would think that most people try hard not to make mistakes while working be them the bagger at your supermarket, the cop walking a beat, a software engineer, or a doctor. (The term doctor is being used in place of medical worker in light of the previous discussion on the loose manner in which we are using "doctor." Besides, the surgeon has taken full responsibility in the matter). Now, the seriousness of the reprecussions of a mistake in the different occupations is obvious. However, mistakes will happen in all of them. It is terrible that the cost of this mistake was that the girl died a death earlier than she would have had she never received the transplant in the first place. It is no doubt a tragedy. Should the doctors involved be jailed? Hell no, that is ridiculous. Should the surgeon be sued? Hell no, he was acting in good faith that the organs provided him were appropriate. Someone here said her file was probably 6 inches thick, all the more room to misplace some vital info when you're the clerk doing the typing, or whatever.
Our society is so litigious, at the drop of a hat, we have people served with papers. At least there is some merit to this case, if it is ever brought to court. But, this is the exact reason why some people cannot afford health insurance. The insurance companies that provide malpractice insurance have to charge exorbitant fees to stay in business. That expense for the doctor is passed on to us, the patients then passed on to our insurance provider. People sue and use the excuse, "I'm doing this only to be sure that this never happens again." Whatever. You're suing because you want the money. You think that money will make you feel better. If someone really wants me to believe that they are suing "to be sure it never happens again," then sue, take the money and give it all to charity. I would never doubt your motives.
I've got a 3" scar on my right cheek from an operation that a doctor performed on me. Did I sue him for disfiguring me? No. Am I pissed that I got the scar? Yeah, a little. Do I think the doctor tried his best to minimize the scarring? You bet. So what's the point? I think that doctors, for the most part, do everything in their power to make things right when they perform their work. I think they all realize the importance of doing things well.
It is not an unreasonable standard to hold an Ivy-league trained doctor to get your blood type right. It IS unreasonable to expect him to get everything right, every time. This time, it happened to be the blood type and there were grave consequenses. How many times has he performed other operations flawlessly in every detail - thereby giving someone life when death was almost certain? I would have a much differnt opinion if the doctor had put the organs in KNOWING they were not compatible but I believe such is not the case.
I say again, they were trying to give this girl a SECOND chance at life. There are no guarantees in this type of work. Someday there may be noone around who will even partake in such eandeavours for it wouldn't be economically feasible. That would be a bigger tragedy.
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wildtrail
Feb 27, 2003, 3:17 PM
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In reply to: Enigma, "Curt-I happen to have alot of knowledge that I cannot disclose in reference to this case ,it is confidental" If it makes you feel smart, calling my post stupid then your more pathetic than I had thought." I did not say your post was stupid to make myself feel smart. I called it stupid because it was stupid.
:lol: That's funny, and extremely honest. :lol:
Great points, Curt. A dual heart/lung is 50%? I thought it to be less. In the 30% range.
I'm still waiting on her answer from my last post...
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elvislegs
Feb 27, 2003, 5:47 PM
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Ok Hillary, I'll bite.
In reply to: I wonder if perhaps the full-court press in this thread is 1) simply to antagonize the original poster, who isn't the most "popular kid in school," and 2) a stand against the teenager's illegal immigrant status. I hope I am not too much of a simpleton to say that if this was an American patient (blone haired-blue eyed OR an American-born Mexican, like myself or my mother), we'd be collectively a little more pissed off. I don't believe for a second that everybody here who shrugs and says "they're human" would say that in such an "eh" way if the dead patient were "their child," (forgive the hackneyed example) or even a fellow citizen they'd never met. s___!
I'd like to address a FEW things here:
First off, not being the popular kid is not the issue. The "original poster" came off as very inflamitory, and said a lot of things that people disagree with. I have no personal grudges with her, but I strongly disagree with her posts (most of them).
Secondly, the race / citizen card is SO weak. I can only speak for myself, but to me, her citizenship is irrelevent in the value of her life, and I hope you don't believe, without ANY evidence, that I am less upset by this because she was not an American. To be honest I didn't even know she was illegal until after I posted my "Cavalier" opinion. However, I think the insinuation that we are racists, (or citizenists?) was more a smoke screen than anything so I won't take it personally.:lol:
More...
In reply to: Yes, the doctors ARE human, I do not argue that; yes, suing for zillions of dollars will NOT bring back a lost life, I do not argue that. But come on, these are cliches that are easily said at a distance. If Duke university hosts one of the best hospitals in the nation, then why can't they get a blood type right? These are just NOT the things to screw up and be able to say "oh, noops, human foible." I hope it's not an unreasonable standard to hold an Ivy league-trained doctor to to know my blood type (O+ by the way, so if a doc screws it up now you guys know). He doesn't have to be perfect or superhuman or have X-ray eyes that can diagnose an internal malady by sight, but at least SOME fundamentals should be wired.
A question, how small an error does it have to be in order for us to forgive it?
Yeah, sure doctors (or lab techs) should have some things so hard wired you'd think that they would NEVER screw them up. But as we all know, if you climb long enough, you are going to make mistakes on even the most basic things, and make them at very bad times when the pressure is on, even after double checking. Just ask Goran Kropp. Or, perhaps a better example would be YOUR friend PTPP?
The good "doctor" dropped a pig on a recent wall climb did he not?He was lucky that no real harm was done, but what if that flyng beast had drilled someone in the dome who just happened to be walking by. Would that be forgiveable? He's had the best training, he knows his stuff like nobody else, but he just fucked up. Somebody's dear friend, is now a fence post at the base of El Cap cause of the famous flying pig, that person meant a lot to his family, and they are understandably quite pissed. So now Pete should not climb again? Or should sell all his gear and give them the money? Or shoudl go to jail? No, it's a terrible accident, but it just happened, and we know Pete feels bad, but what can he really do to bring back our friend? Nothing.
Someone made a HUGE mistake, but all we really can do is learn from it and move on. I will say this again, if it were MY daughter, (her name is Nataya and she is my world), I would still feel this way. I would be pissed, but in the end what can solve that? Only me letting go. Life is fragile, sometimes we can't save everyone, sometimes we screw up trying, sometimes it doesn't make sense, but blame doesn't change that life is life.
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climbsomething
Feb 27, 2003, 8:26 PM
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OK, Elvis, I'll bite:
In reply to: perhaps a better example would be YOUR friend PTPP?...
Ya had promise here, kid, and honestly, your point started out relevant, but the scenario ended up so wildly hypothetical that I can't even give it consideration. *poof*
In reply to: I can only speak for myself, but to me, her citizenship is irrelevent in the value of her life...
Yeah, but WATCH how many opponents (whether they be on rc.com or not) drag that she was an illegal into this, and then go spinning off into orbit on another immigration tangent. American organs for American people... American Guts for American Butts!
Now, for what it's worth, I believe American citizens should have priority on the American organ donor list; if I were dying and my chance for a new heart was snaked by somebody who was smuggled in here under the floorboards of a conversion van at 3 in the morning, my riddled ire might get pretty rankled. So if you wanted to ask, that's my answer.
I just don't like the idea of this particular case being warped into an immigration debate. Because that part really is besides the point here. Time and place, time and place.
*Did that make sense? Probly not. This is why I tend to avoid political debate, as I am simultaneously conservative and liberal. Hillary the Political Schizo! :P Oh well.
Also, this point by curt matters:
In reply to: But, in your infinite medical and legal wisdom, I am sure you know this.
In short, I actually like to be called out if it means I learn something. (Is that some kind of intellectual S&M??)
And now, a for-fun "disclaimer":
I don't watch TV so magna cum laude degrees in Law & Order and ER aren't on my resume. And, my written arguements,,,, did'nt work so well,in Law schol. *twitch* *jerk*
( :lol: )
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