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climbingpride
Mar 8, 2003, 9:02 PM
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OK seeing that i have never Ice climbed before or Aid climbed before but i have seen some videos of both. From what i've seen you can basicly place ice screws wherever you want, is that right, but placeing lots of them would be rather pricey. But so is aid climbing.
Is this just a stupid question or would it be possible?
Pride
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beyond_gravity
Mar 8, 2003, 9:14 PM
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It wouldn't work.
You can't place an ice screw over your head, well, I guess you could...but it would be a real pain in the ass. No ice climber ever places a screw anywhere other then waist level, this is because you really got to push in and torqu hard to get it started.
I guess you could aid off you're tools, but then why not just climb with them and if you get tired rest on your tool with a fifi hook. (bad style)
Also ice aiding would take even longer then rock aiding. Unlike rock, Ice melts...if the sun hits your on thin ice all your pro could melt out so much they wouldn't hold a fall. There could also be "daggers" that might break off and kill you. Lots of ice climbs are also in avalanche terrain where you wouldn't want to spend alot of time.
All in all, I don't think anyone would aid on pure ice...Alpine climbers aid on mixed rock and ice, but thats different.
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fieldmouse
Mar 8, 2003, 9:16 PM
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ice climbing is already aid climbing. Unless you have seen people climb up frozen waterfalls using their bare hands, you may have already realized this. I have seen pictures in national geographic of a climber using ice-screws to aid across a huge horizontal roof of ice underneath a glacier.
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ontario_guide
Mar 8, 2003, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: ice climbing is already aid climbing. Unless you have seen people climb up frozen waterfalls using their bare hands, you may have already realized this.
I'm sorry but I can't quite agree with this...
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drkodos
Mar 8, 2003, 10:12 PM
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Yes...ice climbing is aid...
The tools are aid, are they not? 8)
Is this somehow insulting?
Calling it a form of aid climbing is not denigrating it. It's still hard..... and crazy.....and cold.
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apollodorus
Mar 8, 2003, 10:39 PM
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You could chop away all the ice to get to the rock, and then drill a hole and put in a bolt. And then keep doing that all the way up. Or until the helicopter from the State Hospital comes, and whisks you away to nice, light blue rubber room.
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petsfed
Mar 8, 2003, 10:41 PM
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Technically speaking, that means what Pete and Apollodorus do is aid in poor style. That is, if you take ice climbing, and especially mixed climbing, as aid in the best style.
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apollodorus
Mar 8, 2003, 10:51 PM
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What do you mean, "Poor Style"? We climb in a very "Rich Style". We take $10/pound coffee, four types of imported cheese, fine Kentucky whiskey, a canned ham for the summit feast, and even a bottle of Cabernet Sauvigon (1995!). For Bermuda Dunes, I am going to bring a small barbeque/smoker and some white oak for our 1-day layover at El Cap Spire. Most likely, it will be baby back ribs.
With two portaledges, and too much warm clothing, the only thing we lack in comfort is a satellite link so we can watch TRL on MTV, and then the Anna Nicole Smith reruns.
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grippedclimber
Mar 9, 2003, 2:30 AM
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Ice climbing does use a form of aid, but it is very different than aiding. Yes it is aid climbing, but it is alot like free climbing too. This is an old classic arguement and I really don't see the point. I know and love both.
Ice aiding using aiders can definetly be done, it has been done many times. Pound ins can be place above the head and you can also reach and place screws. It is pumpy to place above your head sure, put very doable.
I think that aiding waterfall ice would be ridiculous, but could be done. Aiding on ice in order to overcome an otherwise impassable obstacle is absolutlely possible and it has been done many times.
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xanx
Mar 9, 2003, 3:05 AM
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just out of curiosit, if u have crampons and a big ol ax, what ice formation would be impassible without aiding across it? i would think if the ax and crampons aren't cutting it, some ice screws and aiders probably won't either... again i have no idea what i am talking about, but i don't see where it would be safer/easier to aid across it.
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brianthew
Mar 9, 2003, 3:28 AM
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Ice aiding is and can be done. Look at the scene from the Everest IMAX movie as a climber goes up a glacier wall. He does this by placing screws (hip/chest level), clipping in a etrier, moving up, repeat. However, it's not like free climbing on rock vs. aid climbing on rock...if you can aid an ice formation, you can also climb it via tools and crampons, whereas many hard aid routes are pretty much impossible via hands and feet (Essentially the question raised by xanx). Possibly ice roofs might be the exception, but then it's just a question of skill and strength...those sport ice and mixed climbers seem to do roofs quite fine. Just try to do that after a few thousand feet of vertical/steep ice...rather tough...but who knows what the next wave of long alpine routes are going to be like.
Here it is:
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~wray0016/iceaid.JPG
Call ice climbing what you will....it still RULES!!!!!
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apollodorus
Mar 9, 2003, 6:15 AM
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Front-pointing up an ice wall is more like French Freeing a crack (pulling on pieces), rather than aiding in the conventional fashion with aiders. It's much more strenuous than using aiders.
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jumpingrock
Mar 9, 2003, 7:00 AM
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Ok I have never done this and I don't ice climb much but could you not do this:
Swing your axe into the ice wall then climb up an aider attached to the bottom? I think this would be best with three axes? And may well be helpful getting up a pillar where you can't get your feet in without taking down the pillar?
Kinda sounds rediculous but I don't see why it couldn't be done and it would be ice aiding.
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oudinardin
Mar 9, 2003, 7:20 AM
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Think of a 2000 ft. mixed aid route instead of a smaller pillar. Aid on ice, uhh... yeah. There are many hooks etc. for this.
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solo
Mar 9, 2003, 12:24 PM
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Before all the fancy ice ger was invented, this was the only way to get up the steep ice. I've read about an FA of now moderate 400m long ice/rock route, which took 3 days and the FA team used 30 ice pitons (no screws back then) to aid up the ice sections.
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beyond_gravity
Mar 9, 2003, 4:36 PM
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Ok, my above post isn't totally acurate. So people do ice aid...but you arn't going to find anyone sane that is going to go out and ice aid a waterfall that could be "free" climbed. You go out and climb something easyier. unless your alpine climbing, Ice aiding would be pretty pointless and a major pain.
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euroford
Mar 11, 2003, 3:45 PM
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when i first saw this thread i immediatly thought about that IMAX movie and how much quicker i thought it would have been to just frontpoint and tool it. you'll even notice that he's wearing the mean grival crampons with the vertical frontpoints.
after thinking about it though, i realized probobly the only reason this is being done is for conservation of energy. while watching the movie you'll notice he looks pretty relaxed and isn't exacly rushing. i'm sure in preparation of a labourous hike up the col. if you were confronted with such a wall at sea-level without a 14 hike directly above you would certainly skoot right up it on your tools.
btw: the guy in the photo is Jamling Tenzing Norgay, we all know what his pops did. i picked up this months Outside mag, congradulations to him, he has a really nice looking little family.
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chugach001
Mar 24, 2003, 3:11 AM
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The Quick answer is YES. look at old Khumbu photos and you'll see a lot of aid. I saw an old Ed Webster photo the other day. Another level is the old-school american waterfall ice where fifi's were normal. Not really climbing on aid but hanging on aid. Lastly the Russians used to use what are often refered to as "Ice Fifi's". These were heron looking titanium hooks about 15 inches long, with a 6 inch beak. You would place it over your head, step on the aider and sink it into the ice. Then aid up and repeat. I did a couple waterfalls with them. they work best on steep ice and work surprisingly well in cold, brittle ice. As far as modern day ice vs. modern day free and aid rock - ice is ice and well worth the price.
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passthepitonspete
Mar 24, 2003, 4:57 AM
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Pay attention, Young Bulls. Heed the words of this OB:
In reply to: What do you mean, "Poor Style"? We climb in a very "Rich Style". We take $10/pound coffee,
In reply to: four types of imported cheese,
In reply to: fine Kentucky whiskey,
In reply to: a canned ham for the summit feast, and even a bottle of Cabernet Sauvigon (1995!).
In reply to: For Bermuda Dunes, I am going to bring a small barbeque/smoker and some white oak
In reply to: for our 1-day layover at El Cap Spire.
In reply to: Most likely, it will be baby back ribs.
In reply to: With two portaledges, and too much warm clothing,
In reply to: the only thing we lack in comfort is a satellite link so we can watch TRL on MTV, and then the Anna Nicole Smith reruns.
Some people "get it", and some people don't. You know what kind of person Tom is.
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apollodorus
Mar 24, 2003, 7:51 AM
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In the WAY olden days (like, last year in Yosemite), people would hire mules to carry their onerous burdens up into the hills, so they could "backpack" and get close to nature, without the pain and agony of leaving the city.
PTPP and I are not like that. We haul ALL of our crap up there ourselves, so that we can avoid the pain and agony of leaving the suburbs.
And, yes, we've thought of bringing animals up. A very nice pug that belongs to my friend wants to climb El Capitan. His master says, NO!
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brutusofwyde
Apr 2, 2003, 1:11 AM
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The most difficult ice climbs I have done would not be possible aiding from screws. Chandelliers and psychobaubles don't lend themselves to protecting easily, let alone aiding. Ditto verglas and free-hanging half-inch curtains.
"These things must be done delllicately, or it hurts the spell."
--The Wicked Witch, Wizard of Oz
Brutus
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