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hroldan
Mar 13, 2003, 5:42 AM
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I need advices to buy a wireless drill to open routes in a nice place i just found.
I need technical data to find my way buying it locally, so i will go for one that matches the recomended features. No gasoline drill advices please.
I've found so far two that seem good, I'm thinking about one that reaches 1,250 RPM, 18V battery.
1,250 RPM is good enough??? I have asked before about drills but the answers have been bad, almost the same: "you need a drill with super extra strength, ultra atomic bla bla" silly stuff and silly advices that got me nowhere.
I was told that even my electrical drill wasn't good enough (2250 RPM) but i tried in several types of stone and it works well.
Any advices??? brands?? remember DeWalt, Power Tools, Power Glide and Bosh i think. PLEASE, no lines like "bolting is dangerous, you need to know how to..."
I think this is the right place to reach nice climbers who know about this and will help
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flying_dutchman
Mar 13, 2003, 5:58 AM
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dewalt drills are expensive, get like porter cable or bosch if you want to save some money. How much power do you really need cause 18V drills are pretty heavy to haul? You might be able to get away with less.
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danskiz
Mar 13, 2003, 6:21 AM
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Hand drills are cheap. :lol:
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onelung
Mar 13, 2003, 6:30 AM
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I would be a better climber if bolts were not everywhere. I do think there are enough bolts up and the rest of the planet should be trad.
That's My humble opinion. Buy some cams with the cash.
Climb On,
Bill
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bigdan
Mar 13, 2003, 6:50 AM
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If it's not worth the time to spend drilling by hand, it's not worth placing the bolt. Just my opinion...
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hroldan
Mar 13, 2003, 2:33 PM
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In reply to: flying_dutchman How much power do you really need cause 18V drills are pretty heavy to haul? You might be able to get away with less.
Yes, i know is kinda heavy, i found another drill also with 1250 RPM but 7V and 12 V, would that be enough power??
I mean, what is the minimum i need to bolt? (in RPM or other tech stuff)
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seeking8a
Mar 13, 2003, 3:21 PM
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I am confused. Are you looking to put up routes in rock or work on your house? The only type of drill I have ever seen for putting up routes is a hammer drill which has a certain amount of blows per minute (bpm) in addition to revolutions per minute (rpm). The blows are what chip away at the rock, same reason why people use a hammer with a hand drill. A drill that only spins will not work on rock. In particular rotary hammer drills are stronger. I got a Bosch Annihilator 24V 3A battery on Ebay for $300, its the best drill for bolting.
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pywiak
Mar 13, 2003, 3:35 PM
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I'm partial to the Hilti (I have a TE-10A), which uses a 36V battery pack. This packs the punch you need for drilling holes in stone. I wouldn't worry so much about the RPM - it's not the twist but the hammer action that drives the hole. You may find an 18V unit lacks the power and/or endurance to drill many holes (unless you've got multiple spare batteries).
The downside is price, but if you're serious about it and ready to graduate from a hand drill, invest in a professional grade tool. Try before you buy - haul a stone to your local dealer's shop, use a demo model (bring your own bit), start with a full charge on the battery, then drain it punching holes in your practice rock. This will give you some idea of real world capabilities of the models you're interested in.
If you're just getting started setting bolted routes, save your money and get a hand-drilling rig. Yes, it's a lot more work than using a power tool, but it's great physical conditioning, will quickly teach you appropriate bolting techniques (you won't be wasting too many holes in the wrong places), will develop your sense of craftsmanship, and will teach you that setting bolted routes is a gift to the community, not a selfish ego stroke for fame and glory. After you've set a dozen routes by hand, then think about investing in a power tool. Keep the hand drill as a backup for when your batteries go dead.
Invest in quality bolt hardware (no home-grown hangers please), and camoflauge everything. Listen politely to feedback from your peers in your community, keep a humble attitude, and be prepared to defend your work.
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hroldan
Mar 13, 2003, 3:50 PM
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pywiak:
nice advices man thanks!
Yes, I was thinking about the benefit of doing it all by hand, the downside is the amount of time available, not much by the way so i would have to climb less and develope some routes.
I tried by hand in some stones i have (some are very hard by the way) and it works, i mean even without hammering but it will take forever.
I'll try with a hand drill this weekend.
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paintinhaler
Mar 13, 2003, 4:30 PM
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I agree bigdan,
If it's not worth the time to spend drilling by hand, it's not worth placing the bolt. Just my opinion... Before you go off buying one you need to get down with someone that knows what they are doing and have done it for a long long time. Most of bolting is not getting the bolt in, its getting it in the right place. You have climbed routes before and been like who the fuk was that stupid to put a bolt there? Well you dont want to be the person who did it, you will feel stupid for the rest of your life. So before you go off drillin think about your placement. Climb it on top rope and mark the area with chalk that would be a good spot for a bolt. later, wEs
P.S. be careful when placeing a hand drilled bolt. Becareful when you start the hole, but once you get it started it dosent take to long. Just tap,turn,tap,turn...good luck
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climbersam
Mar 13, 2003, 4:50 PM
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I bought a Hilti TE-6A 36 volt hammerdrill on Ebay, and it beats other drills I've tried, such as 24V Dewalt, hands down-
Instead of a direct electric motor/gear drive, the Hilti electric motor powers a pneumatic pump/motor, which drives the drill. Much smoother action, less wear and tear, and a lot more holes drilled on a charge than the dewalt. For $1000 retail its way high, but I only paid $350.
Buy the red beast, get a hilti!
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threejameses
Mar 13, 2003, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: If it's not worth the time to spend drilling by hand, it's not worth placing the bolt.
What?! Can any of those voting for "manual-drilling-only" tell me why you vote that way? Is there some practical bennefit to drilling by hand? Is it morally superior to drill a hole by hand? Is it easier on the rock to drill a hole by hand?
Do you also say "if it isnt worth walking to, it isnt worth climbing!" ?
Imagine if the construction crew on your dream home said "if it isnt worth hammering / sawing / planing by hand, it isnt worth doing!" (jeez, they are already running 7 months behind schedule! lol)
I dont mean to be an ass, but what is the justification for the opinion that only hand-drilled bolts are "worth bolting"?
Note, this isnt a flame, but a serious question to those of you with strong opinions on the matter...
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cloudbreak
Mar 13, 2003, 5:22 PM
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Let's see, the title of this thread is "advices to buy a drill for bolting", so why all the "just my 2 cent" remarks about "trad". To each their own. Quit sounding like a bunch of whiny little high schoolers with closed minds!
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pywiak
Mar 13, 2003, 6:21 PM
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Another two cents worth:
Power tools are MUCH more efficient for drilling holes in stone, and the holes are more uniform, making for better placements.
My advocacy of a hand drill is as a means to gain hard-won lessons and experience in route setting. The lessons stick better when greater effort is involved. You decide when you're ready to graduate to power tools. The hand drill remains useful for anchor setting in those areas where power tools are prohibited.
Hooking up with a good mentor is always good advice. So is developing a broad base of experience in multiple expressions of the sport (bouldering, multipitch gear routes, bolted sportclimbs). Most climbers are neither fit for nor interested in the creative act of route setting, but they appreciate and approve of those who do it right.
Getting involved with fixed anchor maintenance and replacement at your local crags is another good way to gain experience and judgement.
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threejameses
Mar 13, 2003, 6:29 PM
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Great reply PYWIAK. I should have read your original post more thoroughly :oops:
Climb on!
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bigdan
Mar 13, 2003, 6:50 PM
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threejameses-
obviously, some people can be trusted with a power drill, to use it responsibility, to not place way too many bolts. the problem is this: if you have to drill by hand, it takes awhile, 20-40 minutes depending on the rock. if it takes time to drill, folks are less likely to drill too many bolts on a route, or add chicken bolts to existing routes, etc. it makes you stop and make sure the bolt is really necessary. that's the reasoning.
i realize that if you aren't concerned with bolt impact, maybe sport climbers, then you'd disagree.
also, power drilled bolts aren't better bolts than hand placed ones. when done by hand by someone who knows what they're doing, the hole is perfect. because the power drill is faster, the vibration can shatter the rock a bit and end up causing a bigger hole. the power can also simply weaken the rock around the hole. the best, strongest bolts are expertly placed hand drilled bolts.
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hroldan
Mar 13, 2003, 8:03 PM
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thanks all for the input but, is 1,250 rpm enough?? i mean, going back to the drill thing... :roll:
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oneballjay
Mar 13, 2003, 8:49 PM
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get a rotrary hammer
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john1987
Mar 13, 2003, 9:17 PM
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In reply to: I agree bigdan, So before you go off drillin think about your placement. Climb it on top rope and mark the area with chalk that would be a good spot for a bolt. later, wEs
If you can toprope it why the hell would you bolt it wtf? What is so wrong with toproping?
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hroldan
Mar 13, 2003, 9:35 PM
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Placing a top rope at the place i'm talking about is a BIG pain..., trust me, I've been there. The access to the place is hard enough, i'll rather lead than set a top rope and then clean.
But of course i'll mark the spots and will avoid over-bolting.
Top rope is ok, but for me, is not as fun as red pointing.
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apollodorus
Mar 13, 2003, 10:20 PM
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Almost all rotary hammers (rota-hammers, hammer drills) turn at a slow speed. These drills pound the bit at the same time. A regular drill will NOT work. And you need to have some leverage to push the bit into the rock as it hammers away.
Anything below 12v is great for one hole. Get a 12v or better drill.
The best setup can be found on the Fish website. It involves modifying a 12v drill with cables and a big, honkin' battery, like a gel motorcycle battery. You leave the battery with your belayer, or put it into a backpack. Either way, you aren't holding a heavy battery as you drill. The beta is in the Catalog Pages, under Bolting Stuff:
www.fishproducts.com
The cheaper hammer drills, including the no-name Chinese ones, will be fine for a hundred holes. No concrete contractor is going to use them, because 100 holes per week (or day) is nothing to them. But, you can get four or five of the Chinese drills for the price of one Hilti or DeWalt. Try looking on eBay. I've seen 12v hammer drills that take standard SDS bits for $40.00.
And besides, you'll need some extra $$$ to buy the gel battery for your backpack rig.
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apollodorus
Mar 13, 2003, 11:35 PM
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The granite near where I live must be hard stuff, then. I once tried to use a regular masonry bit in a drill press, and it hardly drilled at all. It took fifteen or twenty minutes to get a 3/16" hole one inch deep.
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therealdeal
Mar 14, 2003, 3:19 AM
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Either Hilti or Bosch--these are the only way to go. The biggest bonus with the more modern drills and batteries is that they weigh less and the batteries last longer and don't need to be run all the way down prior to recieving a new charge.
I've used a friends Hilti, TE 10 A, I think and it was good. I own an Annihilator and it seems to drill more holes per charge, like 20 - 22 in limestone.
Get a good drill and let 'er rip, it aint brain surgery to put a good sport route!
Good Luck
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realitycheck
Mar 14, 2003, 3:55 AM
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hroldan,
You've gotten some good advice...and some bad advice. My suggestion, follow the good and totally ignore the bad....
A hammer drill is the way to go...Hilti, Bosch are my first choices and a Dewalt 24v is next. Unless the rock is really solt, a regular drill doesn't work that well. Any rock I've ever seen that was soft enough to drill with a 12v drill... needed glue-ins.
And despite what some people here say.... a power drill will do a better job than a hand drill...
I'm glad to hear that you're going to tr the route to make sure of the bolt placements. The bolts should protect the hard moves, but should also keep you hitting things if you fall. Make sure there are enough bolts to keep you from grounding out. That means, place more bolts down low and if you want to run it out...do it near the top of the route.
As for how many bolts you use... use as many as you think YOU need to be safe.... don't listen to the "experts" on ths forum.
If you can find a mentor, or a couple of frieinds to check you placements, it will be helpful.
Good luck, and be safe
-r
ps to bigdan, as per your statement "because the power drill is faster, the vibration can shatter the rock a bit and end up causing a bigger hole. the power can also simply weaken the rock around the hole. the best, strongest bolts are expertly placed hand drilled bolts" I have to call "b#llsh^t." That statement is simply not true and I'll ask you to offer proof.....
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