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krillen
Mar 18, 2003, 6:46 PM
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I just got back from my trip to Red Rocks, and I have to say WOW. what a great area. I ended up doing mostly sport but did manage to convince some of my group to hit up Frogland on Thursday monring.
We arrived around 9:00 (later than we'd hoped, but what can you do?) and there we already 2 groups on the route, and a 3rd starting. Our 2 groups of 2 waited and a group of 3 showed up while we were waiting, but none-the-less we decided to suck it up and wait.
The 1st group on the climb was BRUTALLY slow, they took FOREVER to do anything, in fact they took the 3rd pitch (5.6) and split it into 2 pitches. They wouldn't let anyone pass them and were so horribly slow they were being heckled by the group behind them.
I don't claim to be a fantastic climber, or a fast climber, and I don't want come off as a grade nazi, but if you are having trouble with a pitch of 5.6 you shouldn't be a on a 5.8 climb. At the very least you should let faster groups behind you pass. However these guys remained steadfast (or should I stay steadslow?) that they were going to finish the climb, not let anyone pass, and generally screw everybody else that wanted to do what they were doing.
After 5-5 1/2 hours of waiting on belay ledges, we finally rapped off the 2nd pitch and said forget it. The day was shot because two jerks clogged up an enitre climb. As we were walking out (around 4:00) we saw them finishing pitch 6. It's a shame they were so ignorant, but they two pitches we got to do were fantastic anyway. I'd defiantely recommend the climb, just dont' bother to try it on a weekend, or let alone get there after 8:30...
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bandycoot
Mar 18, 2003, 6:57 PM
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I made it to the crux pitch once but got rained off. We rappeled the route. Maybe it is so well set up for rappels becuase of experiences like yours. I'd have to agree that they were asses. If they were TRULY going unreasonably slow, and wouldn't let you pass, I think that I would have passed anyways. It's not that hard to make creative anchors in the middle of the route on that one and not have to share belay ledges with them. Just make sure that you can move fast and don't have to get in their way much and try to be considerate even if they are asses. Another solution: go do Epinephrine instead... less traffic and one of the best routes I've ever climbed!
Josh
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pbjosh
Mar 18, 2003, 6:59 PM
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Red Rocks Rule #1 -
Be prepared for clusterf*cks and crowds. Take all your gear so you can hop on a route that has different gear requirements if necessary. Head for areas that have multiple options that you will enjoy or at least be able to get up.
Case in point, Black Velvet Canyon:
Prince of Darkness 5.10c - perpetual clusterf*ck
Dream of Wild Turkeys 5.10b (gear required) - frequent clusterf*ck
Refried Brains 5.9 (wide gear required) - always empty, awesome
Sour Mash 5.10a (gear) - almost always empty, awesome
Fiddler on the Roof 5.11- (gear) - empty, spooky, high on my list :)
They're all within about 4 minutes of each other
josh
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vegastradguy
Mar 18, 2003, 7:02 PM
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that sucks, dude. i hope that they werent locals acting like that!!!! :evil:
i understand not wanting to be crowded (i had a bad experience by being passed on Tunnelvision...or rather my partner did), but if someone is on my a$$ for more than a pitch, i'm gonna let 'em fly by.
sorry, man. the top of that climb is stellar, and its one of the few with a somewhat decent walkoff.
come back, get out there early, and blast it!
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krillen
Mar 18, 2003, 7:04 PM
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I would have passed them but we were 3 groups back in the order, and the group behind them had their backs up (bad pun) so there was no way of working out a friendly solution. Also by the time we had foudn outexactly how slow they were it was far to late to start anything half decent.
Really the reason I wanted to do it, is that I wanted to topout, take in the view then walk down. It's always a cool feeling.
We looked at the routes mentioned above, guess next year I'll just be a bit more prepared...
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drkodos
Mar 18, 2003, 7:06 PM
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Agree with pbjosh re: cl*ster f*k on Red Rock Routes and humping gear to all routes.
As for Frogland tho: there are numerous options/variations and they are some easy ways to bypass a slower pasrty. Of course familiarity of the route (or at least the topo) is helpful.
Having had to guide the route on far too many occassions, and some other "Vertical Conga Lines" here @ RR, (Crimson Chrysalis comes to mind) has taught me a lot about other climbs in the area. There are a number of other climbs in the Frogland area that are in the same grade. One of them is a recently rebolted 5.7 sport climb that for the life-of-me I can't remember the name.
First Creek is a great area for lots of options for the 5.6 - 5.9 leader.
Some good multi-pitch, though not as long as Frogland, but never as crowded either. It also allows access from the highway itself with an easy flat and straightforward approach (40 mins?) so no worries about Ranger nasty-grams for staying late or getting started before 6am.....
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wonderbread
Mar 18, 2003, 7:12 PM
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You gotta always have a back up plan or two for climbing in Red Rocks. There are plenty of other really good routes right around Frogland that you could have done, like Wholesome Fullback, Triassic Sands, Sand Felipe, Delicate Sound of Thunder, Our Father, etc. Or as my plan is when I climb moderates in RR, climb somewhere in the morning and then show up at 1 or 2 and cruise up the thing when no one is around or most are high up on the route.
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veilneb
Mar 18, 2003, 7:17 PM
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Related Question.
What guide is good for the Red Rocks?
Thanks in advance.
Wojtek
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miker
Mar 18, 2003, 7:17 PM
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Well I am hoping to do Frogland on Friday and Epinephrine on Saturday, so I will take everyone's advice to heart when we head out there.
I'll let ya'll know how it goes on Monday.
miker
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ajoys
Mar 18, 2003, 7:18 PM
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It does suck to be behind a slower party but where does it say you must climb fast, never break up a pitch or that the leader should be having an easy time. Maybe he was pushing his limits or having a bad day etc.. nothing wrong with that. I would of just left and climbed something else.
I don't understand why everyone just insists on climbing the same 5 routes, per se. Spread it out some.
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krillen
Mar 18, 2003, 7:23 PM
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"Delicate Sound of Thunder" isn't that 11? that's far cry from 5.8-, and "Our Father" is 5.10 R. basically I was looking to get my feet wet so I wasn't THAT guy in over his head holding everyone up...kind of ironic when you think about it.
there's still lots of places he could have let people pass. All excuses aside, he was ignornat. Period.
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wigglestick
Mar 18, 2003, 7:28 PM
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All excuses aside, you should have gotten your ass out of bed earlier. This other group that planned ahead and got up 2-3 hours before you did have no obligation to let anybody pass. Of course, it would have been nice of them to realize that they were holding up a huge line of people and let them pass but if they were going slow and started letting 3-4 other parties pass do you think they would have summitted in the daylight? Probably not.
2 rules of climbing classic moderate routes in high traffic areas. Get up early and be flexible.
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jerrygarcia
Mar 18, 2003, 7:33 PM
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In reply to: After 5-5 1/2 hours of waiting on belay ledges, we finally rapped off the 2nd pitch and said forget it. The day was shot because two jerks clogged up an enitre climb. As we were walking out (around 4:00) we saw them finishing pitch 6. It's a shame they were so ignorant, but they two pitches we got to do were fantastic anyway. I'd defiantely recommend the climb, just dont' bother to try it on a weekend, or let alone get there after 8:30...
They didnt ruin the day, you did by waiting around. Dont blame them. Just because they enjoy climbing something at a slower pace its their fault? The world doesnt revolve around you.
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bandycoot
Mar 18, 2003, 7:35 PM
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I agree with the get up earlier comment. When I did Epinephrine I slept at the parking lot and was up by 4am, hiking by 4:30 if I remember right. We were still beaten to the climb and had to wait. Fortunately the MORONS who were holding us up on a 2000' route got OFF ROUTE. They went up the left dihedral at the top of the black tower instead of the right. I was laughing my ass off while we passed their slow a$$es watching them rappel off on gear to return to the real route. They were slow enough that they were probably benighted... :lol: I'd TRULY HATE to do that descent in the dark! You just can't do a route like that if you aren't fast and competent enough.
Josh
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krillen
Mar 18, 2003, 7:51 PM
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Funny how 5 other groups had THEIR day ruined by some inconsiderate jerks too.
True we should have been there earlier, but that still doesn't justify them not allowing other groups to pass when they are clearly faster climbers.
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boltdude
Mar 18, 2003, 7:55 PM
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drkodos, the 5.7 'sport' climb to the left of Frogland is "Schaeffer's Delight" which we rebolted 2 years ago (although we initially called it "Mike's Route" since Joanne Urioste forgot the name and made that name up - but George remembered the original name later). It actually needs a few cams in horizontal cracks near the top, and two ropes to rap from the bolted anchor (which I think still has webbing on it, although I may have switched out the webbing for rap rings/chains). You can continue up Lazy Buttress, but the 4th pitch of that one is LOOSE (BIG blocks) and weird, although you can actually bail off left into a gully after the 3rd.
There's lots of other stuff over there too, some of it in the Supertopo Red Rocks guide, some in the old-but-newly-reprinted Joanne Urioste guide, and Schaeffer's Delight is also mentioned in the new Red Book Supplement by Joanne Urioste (she rates it 5.8 there).
Also, across the canyon is some fun stuff, we replaced the two bolted anchors on "Arrow Place" last fall (bring THIN cams and perhaps Lowe Balls for the crux off the deck). Third anchor is webbing on a tree; I wouldn't recommend the 4th and 5th pitches unless you're used to the friable white rock and loose 4th class descents (a lot of recent rockfall & blocks at the top of that gully). One of the old SMC hangers at the first anchor was cracked all the way through (YIKES!), it's in the display case at Desert Rock Sports.
Greg
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wigglestick
Mar 18, 2003, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: True we should have been there earlier, but that still doesn't justify them not allowing other groups to pass when they are clearly faster climbers. |
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crackaddict
Mar 18, 2003, 8:09 PM
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Early start is key.
A partner and I did Frogland from car to car in 4hours. And then went off to do some climbing in Calico Basin. It pays to be first on the route. Esspecially when we saw the crowds of people form at the bottom of the route when we were at the top.
Something I learned from the first time I climbed Solar Slab. Which is another story.
Lesson learned is always be first on the route.
Later.
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krillen
Mar 18, 2003, 8:12 PM
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it wouldn't have taken them long to let someone pass, but I'll try and remember that when I'm driving 50 in the fast lane ;)
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antimatter
Mar 18, 2003, 8:22 PM
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Climbers that get on an already occupied route voluntarily choose to accept the risk of rock fall, gear fall, other climbers falling on them, etc. By climbing above another party without their permission, you create these additional objective dangers for them. It's way uncool to climb above someone else without their permission, don't do it.
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drkodos
Mar 18, 2003, 8:24 PM
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My 3 rules for getting routes to ourselves:
1. Get up Early
2. Get up Earlier
3. Get up Even earlier than that.
I agree...early is the key ...for safe climbing sanity, there is no other way to be
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wonderbread
Mar 18, 2003, 8:27 PM
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Krillen, quit trying to justify your bi!chin. If it was this important to you, you would have gotten up earlier, since you didn't, shut up and live with the consequences. No where does it say that you have the right to pass someone, you don't. Climbing is first come first serve and like I said there are many other routes in that are to do. Such as Delicate sound of Thunder and Our Father like I said above along with a list of others. The first pitch of Our Father is 5.9, the second can easily be TR'd from the rap anchors from Wholesome Fullback which has a very short 10a crux which can be easily aided, plus you could TR the top pitch of Delicate Sound from these same anchors. You had tons of other options, instead you chose to piss away your day and blame someone else for it.
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krillen
Mar 18, 2003, 8:44 PM
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I already agreed we should have gotten up earlier. I guess I assumed that people would take common courtesy into account, but I guess it's everyone's right to be an asshole.
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grigriese
Mar 18, 2003, 8:46 PM
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Frogland is such a fun route. Shame you didn't get there earlier! There is so much to climb in Black Velvet. You did have options.
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krillen
Mar 18, 2003, 9:09 PM
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okay that was bit harsh. my appologies. I was under the impression that multi-pitch is like golf, if a faster group comes along then you let them play through. According to Wonder and Wiggle that's not the case. Every man for himself.
Was I dissappointed that we couldn't climb more, yes. Did I have other options? I didn't see as many as you guys pointed out, First time to the area, I guess I missed them. Did I learn a few things? yes. Like I said initially, I had a great trip, I just hope I have better luck next time.
Live and Learn
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