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dig_scott
Mar 27, 2003, 9:31 PM
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i have read where people say that its bad to put more than one piece for belay in the same crack. the example used was "veritcal limit" where they fell and cut the dad loose. all three cams were in the same crack.
from my views this is the only way to build a belay on long cracks. i also cannot see any dangers involved in this. unless they arnt deep and runners from above cams pull on lower cams.
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sspssp
Mar 27, 2003, 9:41 PM
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Well,
As always, it depends. If you have a choice of placements, it is good to spread them into different cracks. Sometimes you don't. The real worry is expanding/hollow flakes and rotten rock. I am not familiar with the accident in question, but I have heard of similar accidents. There was one many years ago at the leap, where three cams were behind a hollow flake and all three pulled.
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veilneb
Mar 27, 2003, 9:45 PM
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The reason putting more then one piece in the same crack may be sub-par, is if the rock or flake is unstable. In this case, if you put all your pieces behind one flake and the flake ripps, you will be catching the fast train down so to speak. Given the options, you want to make the pieces as independent as possible (ie putting them in sepearte crack systems, etc.) This is often not possible, however. One has to asses each situation seperately.
Oh, and I would use Vertical Limit as an example for anything to do with climbing.
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mountainmonkey
Mar 27, 2003, 9:46 PM
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The main reason I can think of is that just incase the crack is expanding (or a flake, in which case you should not put a belay behind it) all the pieces could fall out of that crack. With several cracks you reduce the chance that one could expand and spit your team off the rock.
The second reason is that the crack may be continuously the same size, and if you find other intersecting cracks you won't use the pieces that will be required on the next lead. Most cracks change size slightly and you could get other pieces in so this should be a non-issue.
Of course, some climbs have only one crack for one or more belays in a row. Usually, but not always, the crack is bomber and you can fill the crack to your content for the belay. If one side of the crack is half of a mountain and the other side of the crack is the other half, you should be ok. If the mountain splits in half then your day is up.
You must exercise judgement on rock quality/integrity for all placements, belays especially.
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camhead
Mar 27, 2003, 9:47 PM
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hey scott, your first problem is going by vertical limit. do they ever do a rapell in that movie that does not turn into an epic?
in regards to your question, it depends (hehe, bet you weren't expecting that answer).
if there are other bomber placements around the crack, use them as well. if nothing else, it will make equalizing the pro much easier. for the most part, if the placements are bombproof and equalized, you should be all right.
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mikedano
Mar 27, 2003, 9:48 PM
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Right, it all depends.
Redundancy is good, so if you can spread out your anchor using more than one crack then more power to you. If you can't, then use what you've got. I figure if I'm on a nice solid granite crack I'm happy to just load up in the same crack. But if you can sling a tree or horn or something else, then I would say go for it. But just be aware: I once set up an entire belay behind a giant, refridgerator-size flake. Not cool.
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baywolf
Mar 27, 2003, 9:53 PM
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My friends brother fell 50 feet after he went to rap off of a TR that he set up. All of his pro was set in the same crack system and I guess the rock shifted and the guy doesnt climb anymore. My advice, pay close attention to the surrounding rock.
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dig_scott
Mar 27, 2003, 9:59 PM
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i dont think you understand why i used vertical limit as the example. the movie is a hoax and a joke. someone else used the example and i followed. but never-the-less, all three cams were in the same crack and i have heard people say that it shouldnt be done.
and i also can run and jump 20+ feet onto ice veilneb :wink:
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mackavus
Mar 27, 2003, 10:01 PM
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So basically to sum up all of the opinions here, If you have other features to use... use `em. If you dont, rig your belay in the same crack but before you do so, make sure nothing is going to shift on you. Right?
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hugepedro
Mar 27, 2003, 10:21 PM
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Everything I know about climbing I learned from Vertical Limit. That's why I never climb without my belay knife. Partners weighing you down? No problem, cut em loose!
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jt512
Mar 27, 2003, 10:31 PM
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In reply to: i dont think you understand why i used vertical limit as the example.
Yeah we do.
:wink:
-Jay
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punk
Mar 27, 2003, 10:36 PM
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The one technique Im trying to master from "vertical limits" is the dyno cam placement :shock: :shock:
but all in the same crack
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beyond_gravity
Mar 29, 2003, 6:01 PM
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You can never be too careful. I allways cut down a big tree and brace the cliff side with it. That way if the mountain tips over i'll be ok.
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dirtineye
Mar 29, 2003, 6:40 PM
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Hey what's wrong with verticcal limit? I mean, you guys are saying that you never had to cut a partner loose before? OR cut yourself loose cause your partner couldn't get cams to stay in the rock?
Don't you know that everything in Vertical Limit is real? Chanting and taking your life long enemy to his death with you is the best part of climbing man. I can't wait to cut another rope. H3LL yeah.
Oh, by the way, I'm looking for a partner to go west and climb sh!itty desert sandstone. I'll lead. Hope you have a big knife
PS All pieces in the same crack? If all you got is that crack what else you going to do? As has been said, check for hollow rock, crumbly rock, you know all the bad stuff and plan accordingly. It is legal to place more than three pieces for a belay anchor!!! (be sure to make a seperate anchor for yourself so that when the belay anchor cams pull out your ex-friends won't drag you down with them.)
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alpinerocket
Mar 29, 2003, 7:03 PM
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I agree try to find another crack or feature (chicken head, tree). However if the only option is a single crack I would place the pro in a way to prevent one piece from pulling out the others if it goes. First I place at least 3 peices of pro for a belay. If one goes you still have 2. I place all 3 peices in a way to prevent any pull on the others using long slings, overhanging features. I avoid putting a piece of pro behind another. Also when I equalize I use a web o lette with a knot to prevent shock loading. John
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veilneb
Mar 29, 2003, 9:17 PM
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Dig-Scott: You can ONLY jump 20+ feel? Sheesh, you better start training, cause in the movie they jump like 89 feet with Nitro explosions going off all over the place.
I was a bit dense as to the wording of the original post and didn't "get it." :oops:
V
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jt512
Mar 30, 2003, 4:04 AM
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In reply to: Hey what's wrong with verticcal limit? I mean, you guys are saying that you never had to cut a partner loose before?
I've never had to cut any partner loose more than once.
-Jay
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njbourne
Mar 31, 2003, 3:26 AM
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You should never base any climbing decision on Vertical Limit. The only way to be safe is to base all your decisions on "K2". I thought everyone knew that.
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punk
Mar 31, 2003, 4:07 AM
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Common learn to place a bolts and build Tyrolean traverse from cliff hanger :shock: :shock: after all Stallone is the authority on that
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ezjay40
Mar 31, 2003, 12:32 PM
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now lets see
if ur talking cracks spliting a Face" Bomber" (watchout for earthquakes :o )
but on the other hand (Oh meet Rose) cracks splitting Blocks! pick another block. And watch out for that______________.
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dig_scott
Apr 1, 2003, 9:26 PM
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well veilneb, i didnt want to brag to much so i entered a small number. my best-to-date is 56.67 feet and only one ice axe stuck!!! and i was wearing tennis shoes.
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darkside
Apr 3, 2003, 5:45 PM
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In reply to: ......If one side of the crack is half of a mountain and the other side of the crack is the other half, you should be ok. If the mountain splits in half then your day is up.
:lol: :lol: Maybe only half up, or maybe it makes the summit easier. Look at Homer Simpson when he did the Murderhorn. I think the Simpsons is a far finer example of climbing than either Vertical Limit or Cliffhanger.
Homer at the Springville Gorge:
In reply to: DOH....doh.......Doh..dOH.....DOH.... |
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ricardol
Apr 3, 2003, 9:46 PM
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alright -- i had to go and rent vertical limit and see wht the heck everyone was talking about --
laughed my ass off..
in the beginning sequence ..
the dad was supposedly tied onto the 2 bolt belay ..
.. so why did he get dragged down? --
.. also i guess the 2 clowns who fell from above them were simul climbing since they only had 2 bolts between them .. thats believable .. (but the exploding bolts sucked) ..
i also loved the sounds that the cams made as they slipped out of the crack --
-- ricardo
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pico23
Apr 11, 2003, 3:34 AM
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:shock: In reply to: The real worry is expanding/hollow flakes and rotten rock. I am not familiar with the accident in question, but I have heard of similar accidents. There was one many years ago at the leap, where three cams were behind a hollow flake and all three pulled.
this is really a question of understanding the quality of the rock. If you see a single crack in say .5 Cam in width in just beautiful rock I can't see any reason why you wouldn't load it up provided you have enough gear for that size crack. Keeping the angles down on the anchor pieces is important and a single crack should help you do that. NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN placing bomber gear whereever it is available though.
On the other hand unless in a desperate situation I've got to question the practive of ever using a hollow or loose flake for an anchor point and unless there is nothing else EVER EVER EVER EVER using it as the sole anchor point. Gear puts a tremendous outward force on flakes so it is important to make sure they are bomber before using them as a single or multiple anchor point.
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