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daisuke
Mar 14, 2003, 6:25 PM
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hi guys, just want a short question answered today I did my first trad lead on a route that only needed two placements, a hex and a cam, but as I clipped into the cam I hear "oops there it is" and look at my belayer and the hex is sitting on the belay device!! does this happen often when you´re new to trad??? I must say I´m gald I didn´t freeze up when it happened because I thought that hex placement was completely bomber!!! D
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miker
Mar 14, 2003, 6:45 PM
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Well if your runner on the hex was not long enough or your belayer kept the rope to tight it probably pulled the hex up and out of the bomber slot. I have seen 3 of my last 4 pieces pop when I forgot the bottom directional to avoid this problem. What this means is your first piece needs to be a directional ie-it can be pulled up or down and not pop out. Usually a cam, a big one so you have less weight for the rest of the climb. if it has to be passive then two hexes/nuts which pull against each other to avoid being pulled out is also good. This keeps the rope close to the wall when you fall so it will not zipper up you nuts. ;) Have fun Be safe Miker
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rodeomountain
Mar 14, 2003, 7:03 PM
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Read John Longs book "Anchors". I just did my first trad lead over the weekend and everything I set was bomber except 1 hex, which I knew was bad but it was all I had. I agree with the last post about the directional first piece.
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fitz
Mar 14, 2003, 7:04 PM
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Most new leaders tend to fixate on downward pull and minimizing falling distance. As the rope runs out, tension mounts, and there is great relief when a piece, bomber for downward pull, is placed and clipped. The pieces are often placed high, briefly giving the secure, familiar feeling of top rope or seconding. Clipping close to the piece seems to 'minimize' the fall, and keep the feeling of security. With time and practice, leaders start to think of each placed piece as part of a system. They become more prone to extend with runners, counter weight, or put pieces in opposition. Like chess, they are starting to think ahead, instead of simply thinking to how much safer they will be NOW if they can get a piece in a clipped. Unless the route is 6-10' long, two placements is not enough for a new leader. Get in the habit of ALWAYS placing a bomber, multi-directional piece right off the belay. This will immediately reduce the potential fall-factor on your belayer (and belay anchor) and it will help keep future placements from being zippered. Place often, no more 6' apart early in the pitch, or, say, 8-10' apart later in the pitch. A 12' fall when only 18' of rope is played out is a lot more jarring than you might think. You can worry about being bold later. Making lots of placements now will help you build experience faster. By making yourself keep the spacing relatively close, you will force yourself to have a better eye for potential placements down the road, when you are near your limit and placements are scarce. Good Luck, -jjf
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piton
Mar 14, 2003, 8:12 PM
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couple of ways to avoid the zipper. 1. there was picture posted in tech & training with a belayer standing far away.. when you place hexs and stoppers you place for the downward fall. if your belayer is far back it will bring the rope to pull the piece perpindicular to the rock. zipper out. have the belayer stand close to rock. reduces the angle of the rope and outward pull on the pro 2. oppose your placements. your hex was placed for downward fall, oppose the hex by placing pro in a upward pull below you hex palcement. use a sling of appropiate length and tie off the 2 palcements together by hitching. this will help decrease the outward pull and hopefully your pro will not pop :wink: be safe and have fun
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adeptus
Mar 15, 2003, 4:18 PM
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When you place gear (hexes/nuts) give it a few hard pulls. It´s okay if the metal deforms a bit. Then test the placement by grabbing the sling/wire just under the metal head and wiggle it in and out of the crack to see if it moves. If it does move, it´s because it only has two contact points and you´ll need to find a better placement. If the piece has three points of contact with the rock it wont move when you test it. Give it another hard pull and climb on. Rope drag wont be able to pull out the piece neither will a leader fall.
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daisuke
Mar 16, 2003, 1:29 PM
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thanks guys for very useful and very good answers, the part of the route that was protectable was no more than 10 feet high and the hex I placed was set up directional for a fall should I slip right off the start and not crash down off the 8 foot high ledge I was standing on. I wouldn´t have been able to put in more than 2 pieces into such a crack. I´ll take your advice into consideration and try to apply it next time I get into trad, which may be some time in coming, guess I should stay to mixed trad/sport routes in the meantime. D
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tanner
Mar 16, 2003, 5:11 PM
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The multi-direction first placment is the answer and put longer runners on the gear if the route wonders or if it will reduce drag. Place more gear and buy a pink tri cam( it will make you happy)
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burz
Mar 28, 2003, 4:12 PM
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Adeptus, when you say "deformed" I hope you just mean scraped, scratched, etc. I don't think anyone wants to climb on a piece of gear that "deforms" when you yank on it! Imagine what would happen when you fall on it!
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punk
Mar 28, 2003, 4:31 PM
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Multi directional and apposing placement are the answer but I think that the most elementary mistake that leaders do in “Perfect hex placement” is rope alignment. by having your belayer away from the wall U apply NEEDLESSLY outward pressure to your placement. Here is the example push to the extreme of such a klutz http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/...ts/aidsuperstars.jpg
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jumaringjeff
Mar 28, 2003, 4:33 PM
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I ALWAYS place a oppositional piece at the base of a pitch. It's become habit. As a result, I've never had pro zipper. On certian climbs, options for placing an oppositional piece can be scarce. Get creative. You're still at the belay so take your time. Now if I can just get over my constant high level of 'pucker factor'.... :roll:
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buckyllama
Mar 28, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Mostly good advice above so I won't reiterate. I looked at this pic before but I just noticed this, He has screamers on his directional placement! You wouldn't want your belayer to run screaming to the car and put a shock load on the system I guess.
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buckyllama
Mar 28, 2003, 5:05 PM
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Mostly good advice above so I won't reiterate. I looked at this pic before but I just noticed this, He has screamers on his directional placement! You wouldn't want your belayer to run screaming to the car and put a shock load on the system I guess.
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apollodorus
Mar 28, 2003, 5:11 PM
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In reply to: What this means is your first piece needs to be a directional ie-it can be pulled up or down and not pop out. Usually a cam, a big one so you have less weight for the rest of the climb. Using a single cam as a "directional" will work sometimes, but allowing a cam to be pulled upside down if forces are reversed is bad practice. At the very least, allowing the cam to reposition itself under load can fix it (booty for someone else). At the worst, as the cam inverts, it can pull out completely. Cams are safest then placed so they don't move when loaded. If they are allowed to rotate, they walk. Use two pieces for your directional anchor, or sling a tree, or clip a bolt.
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tradclimber2
Mar 28, 2003, 7:31 PM
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In reply to: "oops there it is" and look at my belayer and the hex is sitting on the belay device!! does this happen often when you´re new to trad??? I must say I´m gald I didn´t freeze up when it happened because I thought that hex placement was completely bomber!!! D This happens even when you are "old" to trad. Just not as often (hopefully). One VERY important thing to remember when placing hexes - be sure and seat the piece very well by yanking down good and HARD. THEN be sure that the piece is still solid and does not move side to side. Sling it and be sure it is directional for the potential fall or zipper (if it is the first piece). Hexes are great, but they do need to be set well. Ben
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dirtineye
Mar 29, 2003, 7:20 PM
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What fitz said. One more time, dare to be unfashionable, place belay anchors even at the ground! Don't bow to peer pressure, use an appropriate sling length. Take a look in Mountaineering the freedom of the hills. Thsi was also mentioned: Two pieces is not very many. An old and great climber pal of mine has a motto--" Never pass up a bomber placement, you might not get another one.". BIG problem: You THOUGHT that hex was bomber. DON'T wind up in Accidents in North American Mountaineering. THe gear is to keep you off the ground if you fall. Put in enough to be sure it works that way.
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