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russwalling
Mar 30, 2003, 3:48 AM
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Ok: here is the set up.
You are a big wall wannabee or just plain poor. You need a ledge. You are not planning on encountering any weather.... a ledge without a fly will do just fine..... you are just a summer climber needing a cheap ledge. You crack open a mag, or look around online, and then see a ledge... made by a fabulous company with a long history of making bomber stuff... you know this ledge is not junk, and is obviously a quality piece of big wall gear.... it is full size, it is has customizable features for various price ranges, and makes you go "*WOW*, I'm going to get one of these".
GET READY TO JERK.....
How much should it cost??????
Hurry... I'm setting the price for our new Econo ledge. Serious estimates greatly appreciated.
Thanks a bunch!
Russ
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passthepitonspete
Mar 30, 2003, 4:42 AM
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I'm afraid to look and see how much the damn things cost any more!
I bought Russ' ledge in 1996 for two reasons:
It was recommended by a friend, and it was the cheapest one on the market.
Wall climbers have no money, Russ! Sell it as cheaply as you can. I suspect there is sustantial part of the Demand Curve you can satisfy.
P.S. Russ - what is status of my ledge bed? After 170 nights on El Cap, Wee-Wee needs a new place to sleep!
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tenn_dawg
Mar 30, 2003, 4:50 AM
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Gawd man.
I hate to say it, but it sure would be great if I could buy a portaledge minus fly in the 300 dollar range.
That dosen't seem infeasable does it? Even if it cost 398.99, it would be the only ledge on the market in that range.
Jesus, I haven't thought about portaledges in a month. I really MUST buy one of those things (i've been washed out on 3 separate ebay auctions) and now I'm broker than ever. (is broker a word?)
Woah, man $350 sure would look good on a portaledge price tag.
Travis
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russwalling
Mar 30, 2003, 4:54 AM
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Here is a bit more info....
Our REGULAR single ledges *with* a 5 Season Fly cost $535.00
Latest Prices for Metolius: $848.00 with fly
BD: $720.00 with fly
We sell replacement flys for around $250.00. Take this out of our regular set up and the *ledge only* costs $285.00.
so.... an ECONO version should cost?????? with NO fly.
Thanks,
Russ
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farmerc
Mar 30, 2003, 5:32 AM
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Hey Russ,
If i am not mistaken (but it is 12:30, so my mind isn't working right) you are the owner of fish products. What about this. What if you made a ledge for about $250? with less features than the "one night stand" ($255) but actually full length. If you make it low enough, I think you could steal a big part of the market.
~Chris
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wallrat
Mar 30, 2003, 5:46 AM
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Russ you do us proud!! I'm looking for a ledge now, and they're all more than I can justify paying...personally I'd like to see one in the $400 range with fly. Is there some way you could do a really simple model and come out? I don't need a deluxe ledge, just a basic model with fly.
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gymclimbfreak
Mar 30, 2003, 6:00 AM
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Well Russ I know nothing about big wall/aid climbing, but i can say by the prices of everyone else, your prices are nice. As wallrat so greatly puts it... $400.00 so if your stating that a replacement fly costs $250. make a no fly ledge super duper econo version for $150. that way wallrat can get his ledge with a fly for $400. The gym rat strikes again. Hey Pete, when you coming to MN I need to see a doctor
Tim
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twrock
Mar 30, 2003, 9:45 AM
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If you had an econo level single ledge, 6.5' x 2.5', for just under $200, I would have bought it before making my own. You might even consider plastic corners to cut costs. I'm not sure that price point if feasible, but an advertised "under $200" pricetag would surely stay under a "psychological barrier." (If you mill the plastic corners to the same specs as your aluminum ones, you can also offer an upgrade.)
Just my inflation adjusted $0.20.
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krustyklimber
Mar 30, 2003, 6:49 PM
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Registered: Jan 25, 2002
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Personally I would spend about $80 and build myself a Krustyledge... spend $6 more on a good sized tarp and throw together the PTPP cheap and not so cheesy rainfly or catch REI when they are selling the Pika rain flies for $99 again.
This way for under $200 I would have a lightweight durable full-size+ portaledge...
Oh Yeah!?!? I AM krusty and I already have one.
On a more serious note, the "one night stand" portaledge is the cheapest, they are going to be your bottom-end competition... I would shoot for it, price and comfort wise (well not comfort wise, it is even too small for me).
Jeff http://pages.prodigy.net/.../emoticons/wave1.gif
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epic_ed
Mar 31, 2003, 1:28 AM
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As Russ will no doubt clarify, Fish is the manufacturer of the one night stand.
Russ, if I hadn't sunk my cash into a BD doule and was still in the market for a ledge, I'd think a single in the $150 - $200 range would be very attractive. How about an econo double for around $250?
And what would be standard? What would be optional?
Ed
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euroford
Mar 31, 2003, 4:34 PM
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Okay, this is my theory, and i know its not exacly an apples to apples comparison. but it is in reguards to my mental theary on economics of outdoor shelter.
in consideration for a lightweight 3 season ledge, it should be lightweight, durable, and built by a bitchen company, an item you are proud to have and use, not simply a budget item you have compromised on. i'll compair this item to my ground based mountian hardware lightwedge 3 tent, and we should place these items at simular price points. about $250.
for the 4 season expedition variaty it should have all of the same qualitys, in addition to being totally bombproof, giving the appriopriote sacrifices in weight to accomplish this. this would compaire favorably to my other ground based shelter, the MH trango 2 tent at about $450.
as climbing/outdoor equipment is not my buisness i don't truly know the economies of manufacturing and selling these items. but it does appear very much to me that the prices are TOTALLY blown out of proportion.
let me go on a rant here. i know i've mentioned it, but let me reitierate that on of my other hobbies is high performance automobiles. i have a 1991 mustang coupe (black) with a fully built 351W motor. i'm a huge turbocharger fantatic and have installed a turbonetics 88mm cermaic ball bearing turbo on this mustang (FYI: the car makes over 900hp).
okay, i paid $768 SHIPPED for this turbo. these things are precision machined, precision balanced, hand assembled and surve abolustly no purpose in the world except for custom hot rods. it takes over 30 hours of CNC time to build the compresor wheel. and thats just one single part out of a dozen. this isn't exacly a typical item, no car in the world comes from the factory with the ability to "bolt on" this part. i spent 3 months custom fabricating the headers and intake plumbing. i would be willing to seriously wager that black diamond sells more $900 ledges than turbonetics sells t88 turbo's. and jeez, a ledge isn't anything but a frame, a bed and a suspension, even if it had custom machines 7075 aluminum corner brackets it would require less machine time than just the compressor wheel!!!!
portaledges have become the price gouging central of outdoor gear and i just don't freeking get it!!
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epic_ed
Mar 31, 2003, 5:24 PM
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Good point, Euro. And after purchasing a BD Double, I feel certain that I could build a better ledge myself for about 1/2 of what I paid (and I certainly didn't pay full retail -- only about $530 including fly). It was an eye opener to get this ledge, set it up, and realize how rinky-dink some of the parts and materials are that go in to it. I have no problem with good companies who are trying to make a buck by marketing quality, high-end equipment. I've come to expect a good return on my investment by buying from gear manufacturers who make the best stuff. I'll pay for quality. But if the ledge I have is the industry standard, there's a lot of room for improvement and I feel like I've paid WAY too much. I should have bought a Double Whammy.
Ed
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mike_ok
Mar 31, 2003, 5:46 PM
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As someone who does alot of backpacking and camping, and who embraces the "ultralight" philosophy (i made my own gvp pack out of silnylon, etc), I get confused over the high costs of tents. Specifically to this discussion, fly's. A silnylon tarp weighs 11-13oz and costs around 80 bucks to buy, and 30 bucks to make. When tent companies make these bomb proof tents, they have to use expensive metals, etc... thus the costs start going up from just a basic tarp. Yet they go WAY up, and I don't get it. Tents are far overpriced, and when we look at fly's for a ledge, I get really confused. Basically we're throwing a heavy duty tarp around some rope and a ledge, cutting it to fit, and putting heavy duty metal grommets on top. Why do they end up costing as much or more as the ledge itself?
If you could bring down the cost of the fly (and it seems like you could, please correct me if more goes into it that I'm missing), then you could significantly decrease the cost of the entire ledge. I'm thinking 150 for a single ledge, 100-150 for the fly, giving us a single ledge in the 250-300 range. Now that would get attractive.
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danl
Mar 31, 2003, 5:56 PM
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If you are popping off the one night stand for 255 I would aim for 200- 250 for a full size ledge. if you can swing it. I'm broke I have aid aspirations and i have no possible way to drop 600 on a ledge.
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*thriller*
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Mar 31, 2003, 6:22 PM
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i'm not a big wall climber, but i do know there's a great article posted on this site about how to make your own for under $100. Just go to articles and do a search. It looks like it would take some time, but if you're like me then you have more time than you do money. the article is pretty in-depth and has gotten rave reviews from a lot of people. check it out before you buy anything.
-Ian
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freezerfrost
Mar 31, 2003, 6:29 PM
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Registered: Apr 19, 2002
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"How much should it cost??????"
Knee-jerk response: what the market will bear.
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euroford
Apr 1, 2003, 12:14 AM
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In reply to: "How much should it cost??????" Knee-jerk response: what the market will bear.
Absolutly true. as was mentioned earlier, if a good company is making a good product, they deserve to make good money on it; i do however have the opinion that the current market price for a ledge is well beyond what the market does bear. everybody and there brother seams to be just a little bit shocked at what these things are going for, and for good reason. the cost of a BD ledge is about equivalent to a full set of camalots and some aliens to boot. where the f is the value in that? pleeeez.
reguarding the cost of tents mentioned, as an owner of one of the higher priced tents; yeah thats allot of bucks, but i certainly didn't feel like i got ripped. in fact i feel very much like i got what i payed for.
i bet you could guess that a ledge is one of the next items on my list and i'm more than just a wee bit po'd about what it may cost me.
hmm.... maybe i could fabricate a structural frame into the afformentioned litewedge 3 tent. now that would be stylin.
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hollyclimber
Apr 1, 2003, 12:41 AM
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Interesting component of the ledge market--foreigners who buy new ledges at full price, then sell them in the valley after their once in a lifetime climb. I saw at least 3 brand new bd doubles (without fly) for $300 last fall. One with fly was only $400 or $450. SO, my price for Russ' question is pretty low, even though the "market" price for bd double with fly is $1100. Personally, I just picked up an extra bd double with fly for a STEAL of a deal (that I cannot disclose since said ledge is probably for sale) right here in Seattle, and we just got a fly for our other $300 Valley priced BD double for $167.
So, the market I think has a strange dynamic. But that is just me maybe-I only buy things on the secondary market at superlow prices.
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climbhigher
Apr 4, 2003, 2:49 AM
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Registered: Dec 6, 2002
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Hey Russ, Sell it as cheap as you can afford to keep on making it!!!! Hey, you might corner the portaledge maket!!!! 250.00 is a good price.
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punk
Apr 4, 2003, 4:31 AM
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I got my double Gramicci with the fly…the bomb…for $120
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freezerfrost
Apr 7, 2003, 3:32 AM
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russ, I read a breakdown of the manufacturing costs that you wrote on supertopo, and see where money can be shaved. Leave as much stuff unfinished as possible. Don't waste time on assembly, or provide a stuff bag. Just a sewn deck and webbing, corners and tubes, and instructions on assembly (with a HUGE disclaimer). Nothing fancy for the corners (something like speedrails maybe). Even something that would be assembled on the ground, and hauled in its completed form. full on KISS.
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