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Clove Hitch
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mother_sheep


Mar 31, 2003, 9:10 AM
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Clove Hitch
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Looking for some system set up beta for soloing with a clove hitch. Within the next couple of months I want to practice soloing up 1-2 pitch routes to help prepare for bigger venues. I will be getting out with some experienced climbers before taking this on but in the mean time, I'd like a heads up. Also, which method for soloing is more simplistic for short practice ascents. Clove, gri gri or soloist?


kungfuclimber


Mar 31, 2003, 11:12 AM
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Great post mtngeo but something in there jumped out at me..

You say to clip the binners in the waist and leg loops, NOT in the belay loops. There are two reasons why I would be doubtful of this info.

The first is that this belay loop is the strongest part of the harness. It is much stronger than either leg or waist loop (commonly 50kn I think) and it is omni-directional in its strength.

The second reason is that biners are not omni-directional in their strength. They are strongest when pulled along the spine, not across it. When you clip a biner into the waist and leg loops AND into a rope you setup a system with 3 directions of pull. No manner how you look at it, one of those directions will have a component in the wrong direction (across the gate, the weak part of the biner). This means that you increase the chances of cross-loading and snapping the biner.

Now, with that said, what are the reasons you WOULD clip those biners like you said?


brianinslc


Mar 31, 2003, 11:46 AM
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Registered: Sep 13, 2002
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Re: Clove Hitch [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Looking for some system set up beta for soloing with a clove hitch. Within the next couple of months I want to practice soloing up 1-2 pitch routes to help prepare for bigger venues. I will be getting out with some experienced climbers before taking this on but in the mean time, I'd like a heads up. Also, which method for soloing is more simplistic for short practice ascents. Clove, gri gri or soloist?

I use two locking biners, locks opposed, for using a clove hitch to solo. Easier to grap a loop of the clove to feed. Waaaay easier to untighten if you fall and/or load up the clove hitch.

Simplistic? Clove hitch is more simple than a device...

I much prefer soloing with a Gri gri, though...(real easy to rap, clean, and jug back up!).

Brian in SLC


scandal


Mar 31, 2003, 12:06 PM
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Clove Hitch [In reply to]
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How could the belay loop be stronger then the loops it raps around? A chain is only as strong as itís weakest link and the belay loop just adds one more potential point of failure. Donít get me wrong I tie into the belay loop all the time, itís just not stronger (well in and of itís self maybe but not as a part of the system)Ö


scandal


Mar 31, 2003, 12:22 PM
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I'd have to agree with you on that one... I'd rather die then get maimed or paralyzed.


kungfuclimber


Mar 31, 2003, 12:28 PM
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The belay loop is stronger than the waist loop or leg loop individually. Combined I they must be as strong or near to it (you're right about the weakest link thing).

here is some info grabbed from the rec.climbing in 1995 posted from Chris Harmston who was at the time working for black diamond:

"So if the belay loop is so strong, why don't I tie into it? Because you would wear it out very fast. The established tie in points on harnesses are usually covered with a durable cloth or webbing to take the brunt of the abrasion from the rope being tied in. Falls, hanging and hangdogging tend to move the rope slightly, under load, against the harness, and this results in a lot of abrasive wear. If you subjected the belay loop to this wear, it's unprotected webbing would wear out pretty quickly.

In belaying, the situation is a little different. The belay biner has a lot less friction so it slides to the top of the loop right away. There is very little webbing on webbing sliding. Belay loops do fuzz up a little from the forces of the biner, but not very fast. It helps that belay forces are usually much less than falling forces."



Here is another interesting article (link only):
http://www.mountaineers.org/...nts/CN302_Belay.html


Oh and my number of 50kn was off, more like that of a biner, 22-25 kn.




rideandclimbkid


Mar 31, 2003, 12:56 PM
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most belay loops are rated to a minimum of 9,000 pounds. look at your harness instruction manual. 1 kN is roughlt 225 pounds of falling force.
this makes a belay loop roughly 40kN strong. at least mine is.


passthepitonspete


Mar 31, 2003, 1:19 PM
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Reading from the top down.

    [*:ccc1988643]You must absolutely eliminate any possibility whatsoever of a factor 2 fall. Do not leave your belay until you clip something above!

    [*:ccc1988643]I do not like the Soloist as it will not hold an upside-down fall. A guy took one of those on Braille Book [?] last spring, fell hard, got hurt, got airlifted out in a gurney beneath a helicopter, and died when the helicopter rotor failed and he got thwacked through the trees!

    [*:ccc1988643]I prefer a Grigri.

    [*:ccc1988643]ALWAYS tie a backup knot!

    [*:ccc1988643]Consult my Index to Dr. Piton Stuff for the Better Way to clean a pitch using a Grigri and a single jug. I've cleaned hundreds of pitches and jugged perhaps 15 vertical miles, and the Frog system is the way to go. Again, in the index. Spend the fifteen bucks and buy yourself a C26 Torse.

    [*:ccc1988643] I use two belay loops - one for my Grigri, the other for my backup. This builds the necessary redundancy, but also reduces clusterf*ckage.

    [*:ccc1988643]Continue beating yourself and don't give up, as you will eventually figure it out.

Keep on keepin' on.

Cheers, mate.


jstumpf


Mar 31, 2003, 1:55 PM
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You might also look into the Silent Partner. It feed automtaically and will hold pretty much any fall. I've used it bunch of times and am still alive, so so far so good...


passthepitonspete


Mar 31, 2003, 1:57 PM
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I have never used a Silent Partner. To me, it appears to be big and klunky, not to mention expensive and not useable for anything else, unlike a Grigri.

What's your take on the thing?


jstumpf


Mar 31, 2003, 2:24 PM
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Yeah, it's a little clunky, but surprisingly light. The whole auto feeding bit and the fact that it'll hold falls in any direction more than makes up for its slightly large size. Plus it also gives me a little comfort knowing it was made for the express purpose of saving my sorry butt when I go out alone. It is a bit on the expensive side, though, but so far I feel like it it's been well worth it, at least for me.


superbum


Mar 31, 2003, 2:42 PM
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What if you didn't trail a second rope??? Could you, after fixing the lead line to your top-most anchors, rap down it, clean while going down, then, ascend it? How hard is rappeling from a lead line, still cliped into pro?


peas


Mar 31, 2003, 2:42 PM
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I've used the silent partner and the clove hitch method. I like the clove hitch method better, because it's simpler, more intuitive, I found it to be less cluster f*ck and it's cheaper. It also holds multidirectional falls like a silent partner. I found that when you are high up on a pitch with the silent partner, rope starts feeding through the device. I don't like this much and that never happens with the clove hitch. I haven't used either system extensively, so I probably have kinks to work out of both of them which may resolve some of the problems I've mentioned. Luckily I have a friend with a silent partner, so I can try it more before I decide to buy one. Right now, I don't think I'd buy one.

oh yeah, and for the speed at which you move when you're solo aiding, I don't find that the auto feed feature on the sp speeds things up all that much.


passthepitonspete


Mar 31, 2003, 2:45 PM
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Superbum, you can click here to Ask Dr. Piton - How do you Rap Severly Overhung and Traversing Pitches.


climbhigher


Apr 3, 2003, 7:21 PM
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My soloist didn't catch me while soloing a few months ago good thing i had a backup knot!!! I Probably fell an extra 20 or so feet then i needed to. I now use a Gri Gri and feed it as i go, But it sucks for free climbing. I heard the gri gri will self feed without modifications if you keep the extra rope in a rope bag straped to your back as you go. Does anyone do this??? and how well does it work??? Chris.


coyoteblues


Apr 3, 2003, 8:15 PM
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Chris, yeah I've done that. I has advantages and disadvantages. I like having all the lead rope with me instead of trailing down the wall to a rope bucket but I don't like the added waight. You still want a backup knot though. You can combine your racking system with the back pack and the combo works well.

I'm sure soemone will jump in here to imply that is a stupid idea and tell you all about the "solo tag method" shortly. To each his own.


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