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kyhangdog
Apr 3, 2003, 5:08 PM
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This guy I know has a pentient for X rated run-outs on climbs. In my opinion placing a bolt in a blank section makes a lot more sense than preserving a trad ethic which may get someone killed.
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crackwhore
Apr 3, 2003, 5:13 PM
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lets see if we can beat this dead dog some more...
ever tried drilling on lead ???
usually its easier ( and safer ) to forego the bolt and keep moving...
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jaybee
Apr 3, 2003, 5:16 PM
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{trying to avoid perpetuating a sport vs. trad debate}
Cuz, to answer your subject question: why is there ever an x-rating on trad routes?
Because by definition, if you placed a bolt to avoid run-out blank sections, the route with no longer be X-rated nor completely traditional. That's why they exist, by pure definition.
{no longer trying to avoid the debate}
If someone is not up to the task of leading an X-rated route, let them either TR it or just pass it up to climb something else. Or, convince the FA to put a bolt in... all three ways work.
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maldaly
Apr 3, 2003, 5:18 PM
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You make it sound that that runnout trad will jump off the face ("...may get someone killed.) and kill someone. If a route is marked "X", respect the tradition and stay off of it (or TR it) until you're head's together enough to do it.
Malcolm
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dingus
Apr 3, 2003, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: This guy I know has a pentient for X rated run-outs on climbs. In my opinion placing a bolt in a blank section makes a lot more sense than preserving a trad ethic which may get someone killed.
Do you at least allow that others might not agree with you? That others might hold preservation and adventure over homoginization and safety? Is there room in your philosophical closet for living anachronisims who hold and cherish values from yesteryear? Is it OK that they have some routes to climb too? Is there room in your world for these others, who might not agree with you?
There is certainly room in mine. Though I might not support a particular route, on the whole I feel it is far more important to respect and promote the FA ethic of not modifying the routes of others without express permission. It is one of the foundations of our sport and the world would be a grayer place were these crazy assed climbs most of us sane normal folks will never touch gone over night, bolted into submission, by a group of children with no memory and no respect.
Oh what will become of their routes when they are old?
DMT
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climblouisiana
Apr 3, 2003, 5:21 PM
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Let's make everything safe so no one gets hurt... ever. Sound of foot kicking dead dog.
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mojorisin
Apr 3, 2003, 5:39 PM
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In my opinion, x rate routes are like x rated movies. They are intended for people that can handle them.
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kyhangdog
Apr 3, 2003, 5:41 PM
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Sorry 'bout that fellas. Seems I've struck a nerve. Sure didn't mean to. I'll elaborate a little. I can definitely respect first ascent ethics (and do), I was just throwing out a little lite conversation about climbing philosophy. Me personally, I don't care about trad ethics at all if a bolt can improve the accessability to a route. It's not about possibly taking a death fall for me. However, I should have checked previous threads before I posted.
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climblouisiana
Apr 3, 2003, 5:45 PM
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I think we should make all routes wheel chair accessible.
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pbjosh
Apr 3, 2003, 5:46 PM
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KY -
Go lead a nervy route and check the feeling you get from it, the sense of accomplishment, the focus you achieve while climbing vs. yet another clip up... you might care then. And if you don't, at least please respect the sport and, as dingus said, the one thing that kinda keeps it together, the first ascent ethic.
josh
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climblouisiana
Apr 3, 2003, 5:50 PM
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Some people improve physically to climb harder routes.
Some people improve mentally to climb the scarier routes.
Climbing involves both physical and mental challenges. Take away the mental and you have bowling.
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dingus
Apr 3, 2003, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: Sorry 'bout that fellas. Seems I've struck a nerve. Sure didn't mean to. I'll elaborate a little. I can definitely respect first ascent ethics (and do), I was just throwing out a little lite conversation about climbing philosophy. Me personally, I don't care about trad ethics at all if a bolt can improve the accessability to a route. It's not about possibly taking a death fall for me. However, I should have checked previous threads before I posted.
A lot of people tire of these discussions. Oh no, not again! That sort of thing. I don't see them as needfully repetetive, however. Seems like each iteration explores the topic in a slightly different way. I wouldn't worry about stepping on that last nerve thing.
My opinion: there is nothing wrong with your perspective on ethics as long as you're not into imposing your values on everyone else. And clearly you are not. You would consistently vote to leave the X route alone, and against retrobolting, correct?
The ironic thing about trad x climbs is this... most of them, the vast majority of them, are easier climbs. For every 5.11x route you come across you'll find another 10 5.7's with a death fall potential somewhere in the couse of the climb. Trad climbers are frequently in x country, some without even fully realizing it.
DMT
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robmcc
Apr 3, 2003, 6:02 PM
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In reply to: Sorry 'bout that fellas. Seems I've struck a nerve. Sure didn't mean to. I'll elaborate a little. I can definitely respect first ascent ethics (and do), I was just throwing out a little lite conversation about climbing philosophy. Me personally, I don't care about trad ethics at all if a bolt can improve the accessability to a route. It's not about possibly taking a death fall for me. However, I should have checked previous threads before I posted.
Well that's the thing. It doesn't improve "accessability" at all. You can climb it if you choose to, it just happens to be a kind of climb you don't choose to do. Just to continue in the philosophy vein, my view is this: Once someone has done the climb and established that it's possible, modifying the rock in any way isn't justifiable. If I'm not up for risking that death fall (and I'm not), then I just steer away from the X climbs. I find the alternative to be taking something from those who are either better climbers than I am or who have chosen a more adventurous path.
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darkside
Apr 3, 2003, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: In my opinion placing a bolt in a blank section makes a lot more sense than preserving a trad ethic which may get someone killed.
It's called Darwinism. If you are dumb enough to venture onto a route where you have no business, headspace, balls, better judgement, climbing ability, and then you fall.....
That may be a little harsh I know, but I work hard on access issues and I see where the corruption of ethics leads to in closing crags. I will not apologise for my passion though.
Don't compromise ethics, don't compromise access. There are times to bolt and times not to bolt. "X" means you could die so think before you try it, you've been warned.
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w6jxm
Apr 3, 2003, 6:27 PM
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In reply to: Me personally, I don't care about trad ethics at all if a bolt can improve the accessability to a route. |
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kyhangdog
Apr 3, 2003, 6:35 PM
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Dude, you sound like a real gumby. Well, thanks for knowing everything about me, quantifying me, knowing all the routes I've put up (without bolts), the grounders I've taken... I guess I'm not a trad climber. Thanks for putting a wall up between people with different opinions or perspectives. Thanks for lumping everyone into one category (sport or trad). Also, thanks for displaying a childish attitude toward a very serious subject. So, why don't you go and take it upon yourself to remove all the bolts in Yosemite and across the nation.
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kyhangdog
Apr 3, 2003, 6:41 PM
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Oh yeah. Just ordered another Pika Hand Drill. 8)
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kyhangdog
Apr 3, 2003, 7:35 PM
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Or not get up it at all is my point. I'm personally all for staying away from higher grade X routes. My point is when "I" am putting up a route. "I" personally have no problem sinking a bolt. Anyone who wants to climb X sure has my support to do so. I've run it out before like most climbers, but to me a high probability of death is not exciting; just disturbing.
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rockvoyager
Apr 3, 2003, 8:07 PM
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In reply to: This guy I know has a pentient for X rated run-outs on climbs. In my opinion placing a bolt in a blank section makes a lot more sense than preserving a trad ethic which may get someone killed.
Well, I've tried to stay out of this but.....
Many, if not most people who climb passionately will eventually turn to trad climbing. We are looking for something that bouldering and sport climbing can't provide, something that the masses don't want. For some it may be that sense of adventure, others may be looking for the danger, still others the connection with the past. Along with all these I personally like the road less traveled and will be exceedingly happy when people move on to the next "trendy" sport. You (and people like you) would take from us that exact thing that called to us in the first place. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE. Climb what you can, practice, get strong, learn and when you finally do that bold, scary route not only will you feel immeasurable better about it but we will be there, screaming, yelling and sharing in your success.
I've seen many posts on this site expousing their reasons for condonning retro-bolting. It's all crap. (and this includes the guy that drills holes on established routes for RP's). Everyone has a different edge. You add a bolt and someone feels "uncomfortable" doing the climb your way so they bolt to their comfort level.....add nauseum.
In most destination crags and even local sites, there are people that will chop bolts put in outside the local ethics. I'm thankful for places like J-tree, the Gunks, tuoleme and yes, even my local crag. Hang around long enough, experience climbing for what it is, not for your idea of what it should be, and you will become one of us.
If I pi**ed anyone off......oh well
Brad
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kyhangdog
Apr 3, 2003, 8:44 PM
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OK... I feel like I just walked out of a bad movie. That's all cool and I'm with you to a large extent. But, I've got a life outside climbing with children. My days of completely hanging it out are over. I'm not criticizing any of you guys for your feelings, philosphies, etc. However, bolts are here to stay. Maybe climbing would be better if bolting had never come along.
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gerbersl
Apr 3, 2003, 8:56 PM
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Here's another perspective to throw into the mix:
Most of the routes out there are essentially public property on public land. Now let's assume there is a really beautiful 4 star caliber line with maybe a 5.11a difficulty but with really bad trad pro. Along comes a solid 5.13 climber who free solos (or maybe use a little psycho trad) the whole thing. Does one person really have the right to declare this public public property to be X rated? I guess I sort of have a problem with the idea that the first person to climb a route "owns" the rights to that route and has the right to say that no one else can climb the route unless they risk life and limb.
There are lots of lines that people aid climbed 40 or 50 years ago, but have since been freed. Why don't we say that everyone must aid climb these routes because that's the way they were originally climbed? Or using the progessive mentality, if someone free solos a line and proves that it is possible then should that mean that everyone must only free solo that route?
I guess I don't see the problem with placing bolts as needed in order to make a route reasonably free of ground falls or massive pendulum wall slams. On the other hand I don't see any reason to bolt trad routes with good gear placements.
It seems to me that the same people who climb X rated routes are the same people that would free solo. So why should they have a right to X rate a route and say that no on else has a right to make it safe? Why don't these people just go free soloing to get their gambling with certain death feeling?
Yeah, I'm a sport climber. :wink: As a side note, one of my favorite nearby climbing areas is not public property. The owner tolerates climbers but has temporarily closed the area twice in the past after accidents. So I guess this influences my feelings regarding safety versus ethics.
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wigglestick
Apr 3, 2003, 9:10 PM
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gerbersl-
If you think about it climbers are one of the few groups of people who are allowed to modify this public property. Hikers or Mountain bikers aren't allowed to blaze new trails because the hills are too steep or come too close to the edge of the canyon. Kayakers can't divert the river away from dangerous rapids just because they don't want to die. Therefore, any modification of the finite natural resources should be done with caution. If there was no ethic concerning who was allowed to do what every route would eventually be beaten into submission by the incremental modification of the routes to suit the needs of the lowest common denominator. The ethic of respecting the FA is all we have because we would never be able to universally agree on any other method. The FA is the architect of the route and their "design" so to speak should be respected.
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maldaly
Apr 3, 2003, 9:16 PM
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Gerbersl,
You miss a pretty big point here. By adding a bolt to an existing X-rated climb, you fundmentally change the nature of the route. Sure the X-leader can chose not to clip that bolt, but the mere fact that it's there, offering the possibility of a chicken clip, ruins the route for many. I have put up some "X" routes, and I know many others who have as well and I can say that none of us put them up because we wanted to leave a X route for others to climb. We spotted a line that inspired us, then somehow pulled it together enough to climb it. Sometimes we were able to do it right away, other times we had to train and/or get psyched for years. We did it for ourselves. It's a huge deal and, from my standpoint, I'd like to leave the route as it was so that others can be inspired enough to have the experience for themselves. The bottom line is this: There are a huge number of forgettable 5.11 and 5.12 sport routes around and only a few bold trad routes of the X and R variety. Please leave them there as monuments to inspired climbers and for inspiration for patient climbers in the future.
Malcolm
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gerbersl
Apr 3, 2003, 9:30 PM
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But what fundamentally gives the FA climber ownership of a route? This just seems very arbitrary to me.
Here's another hypothetical situation:
Let's say that you climb half way up a route an realize that it would probably be X rated to climb further. You bail and decided to train some more for your project and give it another go in a month. In the meantime someone else comes along, top ropes down and places a bolt in the middle of the X rated section. Then they proceed to make the first ascent as a mixed route. Did this person steal 'your' route? Did this person unfairly deprive the climbing community of an X rated route?
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gerbersl
Apr 3, 2003, 9:33 PM
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Just for clarification, is it generally considered acceptable for the climber who first sent an X rated route to retro bolt it?
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