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korbos
Mar 28, 2003, 11:51 AM
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I found out that a shop near me that sells tools and stuff around them like nails and screws had for sale bolts..So i bought them and i want to ask you if these bolts we all buy from our climbing gear stores are the same like all the other bolts and that they exist in the markets for drilling on rocks
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Thx
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redpoint73
Mar 28, 2003, 12:38 PM
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I have no idea what you are asking.
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fishypete
Mar 28, 2003, 1:02 PM
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After about 10 minutes of painstakinig investigation, I think I get the message.
Paraphrased I think the question is
"My local harware store had bolts on sale, and I bought some. Are these bolts (and all the others seen in markets etc) the same as the ones sold by climbing shops?"
In case I have guessed correctly (I am not sure!) I will have a stab an an answer.
The answer is
NO!!!!!!!
Very few of the bolts you find in a harware store are applicable as climbing anchors, and you will probably create a DEATH TRAP if you use them for protection.
Please seek qualified advice on bolts - for the best recommendations see www.safeclimbing.org
Cheers
Fishy.
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ljthawk
Mar 28, 2003, 1:08 PM
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(posted before I read Fish's response)
Yes and no, it depends on what you bought, size, manufacturer, material (stainless or not), etc. Most normal hardware stores don't sell bolts up to snuff for climbing, but viable bolts can be found at construction supply stores / warehouses, that is once you know what to look for.
Honestly, this is going to sound pretentious, but if you have to ask please don't attempt to install any anchors. Solicit the help of someone who has experience so as to mentor under them. Do lots of reading, search the internet and news groups, there's allot of information that can be uncovered. By working under someone who has experience and then soliciting opinions from others, you will be exposed to what you need to know and enough information for you to make your own decisions (there's no absolute answer / truth, just options with some better then others given the situation at hand)
Since I think it fits, here's an e-mail reply I sent to a caver interested in buying a bolting kit and asking for the quick answer. Just substitute caving with climbing and it applies.
In reply to: Setting bolts is a very serious task, you are setting a piece of hardware other cavers will depend on for their safety for many years to come. Most cavers I know spend several years vertical caving before ever setting a bolt. I recommend getting on trips where others set bolts to watch and ask questions. Next, practise, practise, and when you think you are ready, practise some more. Find some pet rocks to take home or a limestone cut country road and set as many practise bolts as you can. Do some destructive testing on the bolts you do set. When you finally do set a bolt in a cave, make sure you have more experienced bolt setters around to watch over your shoulder. Some time back I posted a link on TAG net that was a little web page with several links to good articles / info, lots of reading. Read through it, get on trips with experienced bolt setters, practise, practise, and practise; finally apprentice under someone who has experience. The whole time you should be soliciting opinions and info from as many experienced bolt setters as you can. Not only is bolt setting a serious task and a huge responsibility, it can be a pricey venture. Setting cheap or improper hardware is a huge No No, purchasing proper quality hardware is not cheap. Nothing but Stainless Steel should be used and with todays technology there is no excuse for not setting hardware at least 2 1/4 deep when hand drilling, I prefer longer. If an electric drill is used, there is no excuse for not setting 3 1/2+ deep bolts. Again, setting bolts is a serious task. It took me about a year from the time I started paying attention until the time I set my first bolt in a cave. Again, when I finally did I had others like Brad Long, Andy Porter, and Jim Smith looking over my shoulder.
L.J.
www.seclimbers.org
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korbos
Mar 28, 2003, 1:19 PM
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You are all right.....This is my thoughts too..I will not install them..I just took two of them just to compare them with my old classic climbing bolts.. First thing that made me an impression was that the color of those bolt was bronwze. Most if not all the bolts i have placed (i haven't done it more than twice to create a route) were silver..
But guys the fact is that most of climbers i know say that ppl that install bolts to routes use bolt that they bought at their local hardware store...
I don't know if UIAA has any standard types of the bolts that climbers must use but if they don't they should and fast..
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ljthawk
Mar 28, 2003, 1:44 PM
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Korbos,
I have spoken with the ASTM committee chair for outdoor vertical sports (forgot the official name & ASTM committee number). The ASTM has a few standards for harnesses and other climbing / mountaineering gear, but is not very active. I asked why there wasn't any standard for climbing bolts and quickly learned it opens up a whole can of worms.
Besides there are too many variables for a standard, drilling method (by hand or with an electric drill), application (rap / jug, belay, lead, TR, shear, pull out, etc), rock type (hard soft, etc.), and cost; while you are at it throw in glue in bolts and all the various resin options. There isn't one set bolt, but several options. The bolt setter must evaluate the application and pick a bolt that works best. Creating a standard would be way too complicated. Instead, what would be more useful is a guideline / matrix that lists the strengths / weakness's of different options so as to help people evaluate what to use. But then again, any good bolts setter should already have done this for themselves.
L.J.
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piton
Mar 28, 2003, 2:20 PM
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check out the american safe climbing site www.safeclimbing.org
i don't know if the web page will answer your questions, but send Chris or Greg an email, they are great about getting back to you...
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jds100
Apr 3, 2003, 5:03 PM
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With all due respect to the work that the ASCA is doing -and I fully support the work- they have not been at all good about getting back to me in reply to my questions about bolts.
I noticed that Fixe is highlighted as a sponsor on the ASCA homepage, but that Fixe bolts are not included in the bolt comparison chart that is linked throught ASCA, nor are they correctly described in the text of their articles. Keep in mind that Fixe bolts are specifically made for climbing protection, and that there are three different models of Fixe bolts. The articles offer incomplete, at best, information on the types of bolts that are recommended, and those that are not recommended. In doing quite a bit of research over the past few days, trying to find authoritative information on bolts for climbing, I've found an incredible amount of contradictory, incomplete, incorrect and untested "information" out there, all on webpages and in articles that bear an aura -implied or inferred- of authority.
From country to country, and even within the American continent, assumptions and beleifs seem to be based more on anecdotal evidence, tradition ("this is what we've always used"), and cost control.
If someone does know of a genuinely authoritive resource for information and recommedations on bolts used for climbing, it would be a great value to post that link here. Until the ASCA website makes significant udpates and improvements with their information, I certainly do not endorse or recommend them as authorities on the subject. I do fully support their work, but I suggest that, for anyone who is interested in finding the necessary information on climbing bolts, there is not yet an adequate resource available. The interested climber should -will have to- sift through numerous and varied opinions and editorials written with the guise of authority, and make the best guess from them.
If the ASCA disagrees, please, have at it; tell me why I'm wrong.
I also disagree that the subject is too complicated for standards to be set. Yes, there are numerous variables, but there are not too many to be able to develop a minumum set of standards for production materials, recommendations for length of bolt, a recommendation for stainless steel rather than plated, etc. Standards exist for climbing gear, including trad protection, and they could certainly be developed for climbing bolts. It really is amazing, considering the burst in popularity and the increase in routes bearing bolted protection, that standards aren't in place.
So-called "newbies" get ridiculed for asking questions about rope from Army surplus stores or hardware stores; climbers laugh at the weekender "fat guy" climbing around in hiking boots and Boy Scouts climbing in tennis shoes. People would laugh in horror these days, at the idea of using machine nuts -construction material- for trad protection, yet that's how clean trad protection gear got started. But, when the ASCA and other "authorities" recommend construction bolts from Rawl (Powers) as the preferred bolt for climbing, there's just a shoulder-shrug of acceptance -"Oh, okay."- from climbers.
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ljthawk
Apr 3, 2003, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: In doing quite a bit of research over the past few days, trying to find authoritative information on bolts for climbing, I've found an incredible amount of contradictory, incomplete, incorrect and untested "information" out there, all on webpages and in articles that bear an aura -implied or inferred- of authority.
jds100
Welcome to the world of learning about fixed anchors. You will not find any authoritative source, because there isn't one. Anyone who tells you there is hasn't done enough research. In the end you have to learn from all the sources you can and make your own educated judgement call. Heck I went so far as to talk with Duane Raleigh about his articles since I wanted more info then what he he wrote. As I mentioned before, there isn't any one bolt that works best, it depends on the application.
As an active TAG caver, in addition to climbing, I have the opportunity of being exposed to fixed anchors from yet another sport and perspective. I've corresponded with local climbers and climbers from other areas (such as Rumney), local cavers and cavers from other areas (such as California, Tasmania and Europe), various vendors / manufacturers, have a repore with one of the Petzl technical gurus, and corresponded with many of those on our local high angle rescue squads. In my quest for knowledge I have learned no one is an authority, learn what you can from all the sources and put it together to form your own, continually learning, knowledge base.
If you e-mail I can send you some information / articles to help with your quest for knowledge. All I ask is you share with me any other info you find and that you seek the assistance of local climbers if you ever decide to start setting fixed anchors. Though it's not rocket science, there are allot of factors that go into it and your decisions can have huge consequences for both you and those you don't even know; sometimes a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Besides, local assistance helps teach local ethics, which is as important as the technical aspect of setting anchors.
My e-mail is gt0030b@mail.gatech.edu
L.J.
www.seclimbers.org
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vertical_planar
Apr 3, 2003, 6:02 PM
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Apla mhn ta xrhsimopoihseis...
Egine oloklhro thema prin apo ligo kairo...
H antoxh tous einai polu mikroterh apo ta au8entika, idios otan perasei polus kairos kai arxisoun na skouriazoun esoterika.
Persu konteyan na skoto8oun duo anthropoi, mia fora sto Sesi kai mia fora sthn Xiliadou giati ta busmata htan "apo ena magazi"
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naturalhigh
Apr 3, 2003, 9:37 PM
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i think it would be great if there could be an online "Bolting Database"
Climbers who place bolts could come and deposit information they've gained, whether it is purely observational or highly scientific.
The database would store such information as bolt used, rock type and the specific formation (for example, not all sandstones are equal), glue used, drill used (hand/power/...), shear failure, pull failure, recorded failure during climbing (fall, pulled out by hand, etc...), and more. I'm sure some of you more informed about bolting could come up with ideas.
For one person, or a company even, to thoroughly catalog the strength of many different bolts in the majority of rock types (much less specific formations) is virtually impossible: horrendously expensive and time consuming.
But if a place could be established to amass the collective observations of thousands of climbers and bolters everywhere, I imagine we'd all be better-off. Bolters would be better informed and bolts would be safer.
But who's going to do that?
RC.com ???? :D :D :D :D
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jds100
Apr 3, 2003, 10:06 PM
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That's really overkill. I guess it's an idea to ponder, but, yeah, you're right: it's not likely that anyone or any company will find it worthwhile to maintain and analyze such a database, not to mention the lack of control for false entries.
Among the issues I'm raising is that there is no standard for testing bolts used in climbing, but there are standards for manufacture and testing of other climbing hardware, including trad protection. Some people say that there are too many variables, but still people are out there using some of those "variables" for pro in rock; putting bolts in some of those "variables"; selling, buying, replaceing and criticizing some of those "variables" in magazine articles and on websites. If somebody's concerned about variables, I would suggest that there is nothing more variable than using trad protection, and yet climbers can trust that there are established standards for materials and for testing of their trad gear. Not so for bolts.
If even a group whose mission statement says they are "...educating climbers, land managers and the public about climbing and anchor safety" can't publish reliable material pertinent to their mission, and climbing advocacy groups don't pursue the establishment of standards for the most popular and publicized facet of climbing, then the climbing community will continue to suffer with safety and access issues related to bolting, irrespective of ethical concerns.
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ljthawk
Apr 3, 2003, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: i think it would be great if there could be an online "Bolting Database" But who's going to do that? RC.com ???? :D :D :D :D
Though I agree with having some form of conduit for collecting and disseminating knowledge, I don't think one should be available on the web for the general public. Much like how the thought of a pure democratic government scares me, having such information available for anyone scares me.
Right now we have to seek the information and usually get it from others experienced and through shifting through literature and technical specifications. Anchors is a situation where a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous, both from a safety and an ethic (to bolt or not to bolt) aspect. Most people experienced in setting anchors are more then willing to share once they determine you are not going to be a liability or misuse the information. I wish everyone could be trusted to show good judgement and have full comprehension of the issues / technical information, but our society is not that way. Just take a look at the "80% Stupid Thread". It's likely people would read a little info, deem themselves knowledgeable and maybe even an expert, and then let loose setting death traps. By making people go through more experienced anchor setters you are forcing some form of training / check on who is out there with a drill.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this opinion. Before you do, step back and think about when you clip that bolt. Would you feel comfortable knowing anyone could have set the bolt based on knowledge they collected from the Internet? Or would you feel better knowing people had to spend effort seeking knowledge and learning before they take a drill to the rock?
L.J.
www.seclimbers.org
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theooze
Apr 4, 2003, 1:23 AM
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I think climbing gear companies and shops f*ck us up the ass on bolt prices.
American made stainless steel wedge anchors, 3/8th inch or greater, are plenty good for climbing. No, they aren't made for climbing, but their rated strength is ample.
No, they aren't designed and made with climbing in mind. They're made with insurance companies breathing down their necks, worried about what could happen if a bolt fails and sends a sheet of concrete smashing down on a crowded city street during lunch hour. Stuff like that.
Properly selected and installed, modern hardware isn't going to break. Worry about something else.
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mesomorf
Apr 4, 2003, 1:39 AM
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In reply to: Properly selected and installed, modern hardware isn't going to break. Worry about something else.
Right, but who does the quality control on selection and installation? NO ONE.
Also, rated strength is one thing. Consistency of strength is another. Check out Black Diamond's 3-sigma rating for insight into what I'm talking about - it has to do with standard deviations and stuff.
Meanwhile, think about this - why are there TWO bolts at an anchor? Answer: to safeguard against inconsistent strength, in manufacture and in installation.
(Oh, yeah, I know, plenty of sport climbers lower off a pitch from a single bolt. Not me though.)
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ljthawk
Apr 4, 2003, 2:39 AM
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I was talking to some rescue guys and they said they totally mangled and pulled out a Petzl Longlife set in harder limestone. Don't know the details or why they were using Longlifes in limestone. They told me a few other stories of bolts they FUBARed, but I don't really remember. Of course they are setting up haul systems that apply extremely high static loads.
One of the anchors we replaced only took one, maybe two, hits with a 3 lb hammer to break the 3/8 stud off. Another anchor that was loose to begin with took a little prying, not much since it was loose, and then only a few wacks with the 3 lb hammer to bust the bolt off,
I agree, properly selected (type, size, and depth) modern SS hardware will last. I was at a crag a few weeks back that was closed, but we are working on opening access again. I noticed some sport routes with hardware that looked brand new. I later spoke to one of those who established the routes, the hardware was 10+ years old stainless bolts. Much different looking then younger routes with non stainless hardware which already needs replacing.
My point, no matter what, inspect any hardware you depend on to support your @ss. If you see bad hardware, immediately find out who in your area to report it to and do so. If you don't know who, contact any of the local guide book authors, they will know.
L.J.
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naturalhigh
Apr 4, 2003, 4:26 AM
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In reply to: Would you feel comfortable knowing anyone could have set the bolt based on knowledge they collected from the Internet? Or would you feel better knowing people had to spend effort seeking knowledge and learning before they take a drill to the rock?
In that case hawk i would agree with you... but the fact of the matter is that there are MANY climbers out there bolting carelessly, w/o supervision or even the slightest bit of knowledge.
i knew a guy who went and bought a bunch of bolts and rebolted a route, installed new bolts at the top for TR'ing... i went back after and pulled out about half of them by hand, 2 of the 3 TR bolts infact.
true, this guy was an idiot... but unfortunately he's not the only one.
Maybe you'll understand my position better if you know that I come from a heavy science background - the sharing of knowledge is what the scientific community relies upon to improve itself. I feel most fields would benefit from this attitude. I agree, the internet may seem a bit scary, but after reading posts about people struggling to find information, wouldn't it be better if it was consolidated? That way it would be easier to regulate - companies could confirm testing, or interject they feel something is dangerous, and that information would be known to the majority rather than the minority. Peer evalutation is a powerful tool.
Anyone who is responsible is going to try and learn and practice bolting as much as they can first.
Anyone who is irresponsible is going to spend minimal effort and still bolt.
Both types of people are out there, and I would rather have the irresponsible ones better armed with knowledge than not, hoping their ignorance keeps them from bolting. It won't.
I understand the effort that would have to go into an online resource... guess why there isn't one?? the false entries are also an issue... but no more than they are on this board. Ever read someones post and think "that moron is going to get someone killed with that advice!"? But peer evaluation and moderation will (usually) prevail.
I mostly put the idea out for two reasons - to further encourage people to think, read, talk, and PRACTICE. experience will be your greatest teacher. secondly, I put it out there for anyone who may be in a position to do such a thing... whether it be rc.com, the ASCA, or some other standards committee... maybe they're watching and reading and one day will pick up on the fact that this is an issue climbers are seriously concerned about and desperately want stricter standards in place, from tighter quality control on bolts to established protocols and methods for installment.
just my 2 cents and dreams of a better future ;)
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ljthawk
Apr 4, 2003, 4:47 AM
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In reply to: Maybe you'll understand my position better if you know that I come from a heavy science background - the sharing of knowledge is what the scientific community relies upon to improve itself. I feel most fields would benefit from this attitude.
I too am in a "scientific field" (look at my profile if you are interested). I'm also for sharing knowledge with those responsible and for learning as much as I can from others. Ask jds100, we have already had some correspondence. I agree that there needs to be more testing and would love to do it, the problem is there isn't any money in it. The ASTM committee has problems getting companies involved as it is and they don't have any bight to enforce their standards. There are a few others out there who would like to do testing, the problem is it isn't going to put bread on the table. I don't even think the Europeans have EN standards on bolts. They may have them on hangers and glue in bolts that don't use hangers, but not on the mechanical bolts themselves; though I haven't looked at the info lately and may be wrong.
With that said, I would be all for a coalition of climbing coalitions working on anchor maintenance. More like a networking / data gathering system for climbing coalitions interested in working on anchor maintenance. Hopefully such coalitions are properly tied into the roots of their climbing community and can disseminate / collect knowledge that way; I know the SCC is. The thought of having an "idiots guide to bolting" on the Internet scares me. Having that information available through local climbing coalitions at least has some checks and balances in the system. As for idiots that run loose setting death traps with a drill, hopefully the climbers in the local climbing coalition will notice and put a stop to it. In addition, just because there's a bolt doesn't mean it should be used. Climbers need to learn to evaluate such hardware before using it.
L.J.
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ljthawk
Apr 4, 2003, 5:05 AM
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One more thing, here's something I find inexcusable. In an time and age where people are working hard at replacing rusted out old carbon steel anchors with good SS anchors, here's a climbing vendor who is still selling carbon steel bolts.
http://libertymountain.com/catalog.php?type=product&id=WM767
The first hint was the low price for the bolts with respect to SS and with respect to the high prices they have for most of the other bolting hardware. I then cross checked with my Powers catalog and they Powers doesn't have some of those sizes in stainless, only carbon steel. Given that most hangers are stainless and accelerated corrosion from mixing dissimilar metals, I find their offering of non SS bolts irresponsible. I have some carbon steel test bolts I set in limestone, but used a stainless lock washer (didn't put a hanger on them). Within a month or so they started to rust.
L.J.
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