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highcamp
Apr 6, 2003, 8:16 PM
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Sounds like a simply question, I thought so too, but I’m finding it isn’t.
I’ve been aiding for about 4 years now, struggled my way up a couple walls, and for the most part did so without incident. The standard method I’ve used for attaching my daisies to my aiders, so I don’t lose the later, is to link the end-loop of the daisy to the attachment loops of both aiders using a locking ‘biner. Through both attachment loops of the aiders I then attach the ‘biner which I use to clip to whatever piece I’m about to move up on. Although cramming two ‘biners through the attachment points of aiders (loops which I believe are only sized for one 'biner) has made for a rather rigid connection, it kept me from losing the set and thus it did it’s job.
While aiding yesterday, however, I discovered a major glitch in the system. While standing in the 2nd steps of my aiders leaning way out to place a hook just above the lip of the roof I was under I realized that my daisy connection to the aiders was pulling perpendicular to the direction which my aiders were pulling (meaning that while my aiders were exerting a downward force, my daisy was exerting a severe outward force). The piece I was on wasn’t effected at all, but the attachment loops of the aiders sure were.
Basically I was stretching the aider attachment loops between the 'biner clipped to the piece and the locking 'biner attached to my daisy. It looked really ugly at the stitching point. I was effectively testing the loop strength of the aider attachment point’s stitching (which it wasn’t designed for) vs. it’s sheer strength (which it was). The stitches didn’t blow, but it looked unnerving enough for me to seek out an alternative method of attaching the daisy.
I’ve surfed about looking for such alternative methods, and have found none that still link the daisy to the aiders in a manner that keeps the two atached so I can't drop the aider set. Even “The Better Way” is susceptible to the loop stretching problem.
Anybody have any other ideas? How do you folks attach the two and subsequently attach the lot to the next piece to avoid this loop stretching issue?
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brutusofwyde
Apr 6, 2003, 9:47 PM
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I use Yates adjustable daisys. Had Yates make the loop a bit larger so it would slide over a locking carabiner barrel and gate.
Used to use a two carabiner system similar to what you describe, but have switched to everything clipped into one carabiner, a oval locker. Less mess. If making placements where I feel I want the locker engaged, I do so, otherwise use it as a normal oval would be used.
No loading issues this way, and I keep the Yates loop on the side of the carabiner away from the gate for those balancy reaches.
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wallrat
Apr 7, 2003, 12:53 AM
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Registered: Nov 28, 2002
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Sir Brutus of Wyde nailed it...use an oval locker.
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flamer
Apr 7, 2003, 4:13 AM
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Registered: Oct 22, 2002
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I agree with Brutus,
However I use Petzl attaches'. The key lock just makes it smoother clipping/unclipping from gear, bolts, pins, etc. The spine is also a perfect sized handle for those clip and pull situations.
josh
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smithclimber
Apr 7, 2003, 5:11 AM
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Personally, I've never found a need to use any lockers or second biners on my setup. I just put both aiders and the end of the daisy on one keylock oval.
This sounds a bit like one of those situations where we are creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist (the problem being dropping aiders, not the genuine concern of pulling the stitching of the loops apart).
Anyway, I suppose if you are super paranoid about losing your aiders (it's never been a problem for me) you COULD girth hitch the end of your daisy directly to the attachment loop on your aider(s) and then just use the one biner as per usual. Although I don't do it, some people use this method when it comes to jugging. They girth hitch directly to the ascender. If you chose to use this method on the aiders I suppose the worst thing that could happen is you might lose just the biner, however you would eliminate the possibility of losing the aider(s).
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apollodorus
Apr 7, 2003, 6:35 AM
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Registered: Feb 18, 2002
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And, of course, Brutus of Wyde is the only guy in the whole wide world who has OVAL LOCKERS! I remember seeing them, back when the vegetation rioted and giants walked the earth. But now? The only time I even hear about them anymore is when I transfix a campfire crowd with my tale of the time I actually TOUCHED an Oval Locker.
Edited to prevent hijacking the thread (see next post): I use lockers to keep the aiders and daisies together. A separate, regular biner is clipped to the aider for clipping pieces. That way, you don't risk dropping the aider by opening the locker.
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smithclimber
Apr 7, 2003, 7:00 AM
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Registered: Feb 15, 2002
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Hey Tom, don't hijack the thread, man.
BTW, oval lockers can still be found. Petzl makes them and Kong might too.
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fishypete
Apr 7, 2003, 8:28 AM
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Registered: Apr 5, 2002
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I bought some oval lockers just a few weeks ago....
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highcamp
Apr 7, 2003, 10:51 PM
Post #9 of 12
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Registered: Dec 9, 2002
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I actually tried the lone 'biner method, but it turned out to be a mess. Trying to cram two aiders and a Metolius adjustable daisy so that they all sit harmoniously on one end of an oval was impossible. There just isn't enough real estate.... most of the space that is available is taken up by the adjustable daisy. The grouping of all three also made opening the 'biner gate a pain. Not really a "pain" per se, but after 100 ft of aid I'm sure I'd be ready to kick an old lady out of frustration.
So I need a 'biner with more room if I'm going to go this route, preferably one that is oval or close to it. Ideas? (please don't recommend the 5 lb steel 'biners used for rescue... 100 ft of using those would make me want to kick an old lady as well.)
thanks
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bradhill
Apr 7, 2003, 11:21 PM
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Registered: Mar 22, 2002
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Kong not only makes oval lockers, but they have a keylock gate and come in fun anodized colors like bright purple.
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simzboardr
Apr 8, 2003, 2:59 AM
Post #11 of 12
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Registered: May 9, 2002
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Dude tons of companies make oval lockers, i found Petzl oval lockers are the best...they also have a new sweet oval keylock witha thumbgrip...it looks really sweet. Black Diamond has some oval lockers and a new oval wiregate. Great for aiding
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punk
Apr 8, 2003, 4:36 AM
Post #12 of 12
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Registered: May 28, 2002
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[*:ffcfb277ee]My alternative way off attaching the Aiders is to attach both Aiders with Petzl M’D locking and Petzl spirit for the daisy then hang the M’D in the spirit and fix it with some rubber bend around the M’d so it wont slide and fall
[*:ffcfb277ee]With the Yates, u can rig the whole thing (Aiders + M’D) to the daisy Carabiner loop since it is bigger then the Metolius (it can take 2 biners)
[*:ffcfb277ee]The last method is to get the 4” short draw loop and thread it through the Aiders and clipping the ends to the same Carabiner that your daisy attached to then finishing this with a rubber band loop (like at the end of a draw…to make the biner stationary)
[*:ffcfb277ee]I never tried it but u can also use the small Petzl maillon rapid to connect your Aiders to the daisy biner since it will be lower profile
The DELTA n 10
The GO n 7
:wink:
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