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Bounce Testing on adj. daisys
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beyond_gravity


Apr 18, 2003, 8:14 AM
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Bounce Testing on adj. daisys
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My metolius adjustable daisys say they are only rated to 300 lbs of force. well i'm like 180lbs, and i'm sure I can generate more then 300lbs of force bounce testing. is this somthing I should be worried about? or is the 300lbs just the "safe working load", not the actual breaking stregth?

also after just a few uses, the color on the webbing on the side that the buckles rub has significatly faded...how durable are these things?


mother_sheep


Apr 18, 2003, 8:25 AM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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Check out this warning:

Warning All Easy Daisy Users: Daisy Chains should be used for body weight applications only! Do not use as your sole attachment point. Always back them up with full-strength attachments. Do not use as a runner or sling. Do not belay off Metolius Daisies.


Althought my Metolious Daisys work pretty well, its hard for me to fully trust a piece of gear that resembles my dog's leash.


passthepitonspete


Apr 18, 2003, 9:14 AM
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Bounce-test the livin' bejeepers out of 'em, mate! [In reply to]
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I have used two kinds of adjustable daisies - a pair of the buckle kind I bought from Jose Pereyra who made them, and the D-ring kind made by Metolius.

The buckle kind begins to slip after about four walls. It is for this reason, and this reason alone, I recommend against the Yates which uses buckles. When I soloed The Trip, I had to pull in the daisies as I climbed up my aiders, and then quickly whip my adjustable fifi onto the piece before I started sliding back down! Sheesh.

BTW, Jeremy, did you ever find yourself an adjustable fifi? The daisies alone are not enough.

Since then when I switched to the D-ring kind, I have bounce-tested the livin' bejeepers out of my Metolius, with no problems whatsover. And dude - when I bounce, I mean I REALLY BOUNCE!

[Note: The intensity of my bounce-testing varies proportionally with the fear in my heart, and let me tell you I get pretty darn scared on hard aid!]

It's true you can generate over 300 pounds. If you're not doing so, you SHOULD be doing so. However, unless you want your hips to be squished and your waist to be scrunched, you should be putting the majority of the force onto your aiders.

Unless you are a total lardass, I just can't imagine how it would be possible to make a Metolius adjustable aider fail while bounce testing it.

I use the two of them routinely as my only point of connection to the wall, most usually when crawling around on belay anchors.


rockprodigy


Apr 18, 2003, 9:23 AM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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You should be bounce testing on your etriers, not your daisies.


sspssp


Apr 18, 2003, 9:27 AM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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There have been a couple of occasions where the metolious daisys have failed during a static fall onto the daisy (piece popped, four or five foot fall onto lower piece). I think this is the reason that they list the strength so low (and I think the listed strength is lower than when these daisys first came out). I don't think you should be worried about breaking them when bounce testing, but don't expect them to hold if you take a static fall on them.


nickb


Apr 18, 2003, 10:22 AM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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On a side note. When practicing on my newish Metolius adjustable daisies. I was worried about blowing out a piece and doing a static fall onto the lower daisy. To easy my worried mind, I was thinking about doubling over about a six inch stretch of the daisy and putting in a few stiches. Sort of like a one sided screamer. If done in the right spot it shouldn't lengthen the amount you can yard up on the daisy by more than about a cm. It's just an idea. I'm not sure if I would trust one of my own sewing jobs unless I tested it and I doubt Yates would do this on someone elses gear. What do you think?


copperhead


Apr 18, 2003, 10:39 AM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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In reply to:
You should be bounce testing on your etriers, not your daisies.

Why?


dsafanda


Apr 18, 2003, 10:49 AM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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I bounce test on my Yates adjustable daisys with no problem. That said, I do think you need to retire adjustable daisys a bit sooner than you might with convetional daisys. They don't seem to hold up as well over time.

http://www.safanda.com/misc/smiley_aid.gif


bigwallben


Apr 18, 2003, 4:42 PM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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In reply to:
You should be bounce testing on your etriers, not your daisies.
I test on my daisys all the time, it lets me get way low on my last piece and test while still on the last piece. When the tested piece does pop while testing this way the shock on the lower piece is way low since your still standing on the lower piece. Is this the wrong way to do things? works for me.

Ben


dsafanda


Apr 18, 2003, 4:59 PM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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I do the same thing on certain pieces.


flamer


Apr 18, 2003, 6:02 PM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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Agreed I use my Yates adj. to bounce. No problem and in addition to what's already been said...On really steep stuff bouncing with your daisy is less strenous.
josh


johnhenry


Apr 18, 2003, 7:15 PM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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I haven't had a problem with this either.

I bought the Metolius adjustable daisies and I already regret it. Don't get me wrong they are good units, but they can be hell trying to untension on roofs and traverses. Am I missing something???

My strong recommendation is to buy these:

http://www.fishproducts.com/catalog/bigwall.html

The Fish adjustable daisies. They will wear out but Russ sells the replacement webbing for five bucks...

This extra expense is more than worth it when you consider all the time you will spend messing with your adjustable fifi trying to loosen your Metolius Daisy. Compare Russ's model to the Fish ones and they are nearly identical. They use the same Acra(Ancra) buckle.

Right On,
John


coyoteblues


Apr 18, 2003, 7:38 PM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Compare Russ's model to the Fish ones and they are nearly identical.
I think you mean "compare Russ's model to the Yates ones," right?

I did notice one difference. The Yates ones have a rap ring sewn into the end of the strap. It serves three puposes that I can see: it gives you something really easy to grab onto; if the cam tooth blows for whatever reason, the ring will stop the strap from coming all the way out; you can put the girthhitch side of the strap through the ring and still easily pull it, which makes for less "dangling" of gear.

But at the introductory price Russ is charging, the Fish model is very sweet.


johnhenry


Apr 18, 2003, 7:47 PM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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Coyoteblues is right "compare Russ's with Yates" and the rap ring is the one difference.
Thanks Amigo,
John


passthepitonspete


Apr 18, 2003, 9:52 PM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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In reply to:
"The aggressive teeth on the buckle will fuzz out your webbing and in some cases make the daisy unsafe for use after minimal use (one wall? two walls? less?)"

The question is, how long will they last?

There is no question about it - the buckle-style adjustable daisies are easier to operate than the D-ring style. My concern was that they wear out too quickly.

Here's Russ':

http://www.fishproducts.com/pics/adjdaisy4.jpeg


russwalling


Apr 19, 2003, 12:14 AM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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In reply to:
"The aggressive teeth on the buckle will fuzz out your webbing and in some cases make the daisy unsafe for use after minimal use (one wall? two walls? less?)"

In reply to:
The question is, how long will they last?

The ever popular answer is "it depends". Depends on what??? How about your weight, how you test pieces, whether you winch yourself up with the tail while the cam is engaged, how much leading you do Vs. cleaning. This is why I make no claims on longevity, and it has been in my experience that they wear out way too fast in general. Not to whip out a shameless plug here or anything, but that is why our Adj. Daisy comes with a NEW spare length of webbing for the same price as comparable units. At least this way you will get two tries to wear it out at the one time price.

In reply to:
There is no question about it - the buckle-style adjustable daisies are easier to operate than the D-ring style. My concern was that they wear out too quickly.

Mine too... that is one reason we have not made them until recently. (But...You guys kept asking for them and we aim to please) Another reason is I don't use them.... I don't winch, and I'm not a noodler in the aiders. I place it, test it, and then pimp right to the top of the aiders. All the widgets just seem to slow me down. They (adj. daisies) may add speed for some applications, but I'm mostly an extra long daisy guy, using the end loop 94% of the time (full extention), then clip in right at my waist right on the piece. Works for me.

Plus, to drag another thread into this (?), I don't test from my daisy. Mechanically, you can get more force on the piece using your stiffened legs and honking up and down than slumping a soft body via a harness onto the same piece. If you want to stay way low, get longer aiders.
adios,
Russ


passthepitonspete


Apr 19, 2003, 5:03 AM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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First of all, Russ, you might want to remove the image from my quote, because it ain't working right, and is messing up your post.

A thought has occurred to me. Is it the burring nylon that causes these things to slip over [a yet undetermined amount of] time, or could it be the teeth on the buckle wearing down? I always thought with the rig I bought from Jose that if I somehow sharpened the teeth, I might get more "bite" out of 'em. Thoughts?

Also, this slippage is obviously a greater problem than I had first imagined. I wondered if it might have been a problem with Jose's design, but it appears to be "the nature of the beast." Do people find their Yates buckles to slip over time too? If so, how soon? The extra piece of webbing that Russ includes could well be the Better Way.

In reply to:
"Another reason is I don't use them.... I don't winch, and I'm not a noodler in the aiders. I place it, test it, and then pimp right to the top of the aiders."

C'mon Russ, confess - you've never even tried adjustable daisies, have you? Because if you had, you would know how incredibly easy they are to use. Why climb when you don't have to?

I am Dr. Piton,

and I do not climb El Cap - I merely pull myself up using a 2:1 mechanical advantage.



Voice of Michael Palin in the Spanish Inquisition sketch: "Confess! Con-FESS!"

"It's not working my lord....."

"Do ya have all the stuffing in one end of the pillow?"


coyoteblues


Apr 19, 2003, 9:26 AM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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In reply to:
"The aggressive teeth on the buckle will fuzz out your webbing and in some cases make the daisy unsafe for use after minimal use (one wall? two walls? less?)"
There are other cam buckle styles that seem like they'd work better for adj daisies. You'd need to do more testing, but I once hung 900+ lbs from a 1 inch cam buckle that was cast metal (instead of the bent plate style). The webbing went over a round rod and was pinched by the cam much like an asender pinches the rope. I dont' think it'd matter how worn the webbing got, the cam will still "grab" because of the position of the point of contact. Like an asender, the teeth on the cam seem mostly just to help it engage. It's hard to describe without seeing it but it is different than the ones you are using.


russwalling


Apr 19, 2003, 10:36 AM
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In reply to:
A thought has occurred to me. Is it the burring nylon that causes these things to slip over [a yet undetermined amount of] time, or could it be the teeth on the buckle wearing down? I always thought with the rig I bought from Jose that if I somehow sharpened the teeth, I might get more "bite" out of 'em. Thoughts?

Probably not the teeth wearing down. The webbing through wear will get thinner and slicker. It may look fuzzy, but it is not grabbing the teeth for some reason. I have some buckles with really sharp teeth, but these really eat the webbing fast. I bet the reduced thickness has a lot to do with it.

In reply to:
Also, this slippage is obviously a greater problem than I had first imagined. I wondered if it might have been a problem with Jose's design, but it appears to be "the nature of the beast." Do people find their Yates buckles to slip over time too? If so, how soon? The extra piece of webbing that Russ includes could well be the Better Way.

I had heard the Yates slips also. This was a problem for sure on the early models, and may have been fixed with the super toothy buckles.... As not to single Yates out or anything, but the buckles slip on my roof tie-downs also. Hmmmm.... The extra piece of webbing at least gives you a quick fix if you are going up on a wall with suspect gear.

In reply to:
"Another reason is I don't use them.... I don't winch, and I'm not a noodler in the aiders. I place it, test it, and then pimp right to the top of the aiders."

In reply to:
C'mon Russ, confess - you've never even tried adjustable daisies, have you? Because if you had, you would know how incredibly easy they are to use. Why climb when you don't have to?

Tried them and found them to be slow, heavy, bulky and allowed way too much time to play with the technology instead of climbing. The Adj. Daisy is just a vehicle for "mouse milking".... lots of wiggling and fussing for little output. Of course YMMV....

Russ


brutusofwyde


Apr 19, 2003, 12:50 PM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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Yates do slip as well, even the newer models, after a few walls.

The nylon wear may very well be the problem, but I found that I CAN get the buckles to lock if I apply a little pressure in the locking direction to the tab of the buckle. Not optimum, but it will get you up the wall.

Brutus


passthepitonspete


Apr 20, 2003, 6:37 PM
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I'm not Chris Bonington [In reply to]
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Yeah, I found that when the buckles started to slip, I could pinch them shut with my thumb, and that held them - sort of.

Do note that there is NO such slippage problem with the D-ring style adjustable daisies like Metolius.

Dr. Piton does not purport to teach the only way or the best way, but he sure as heck believes that the Better Way is pulling yourself up with adjustable daisies.

Christian Bonington may have chosen to climb, but not me, mate.


rockprodigy


Apr 21, 2003, 10:27 AM
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Re: I'm not Chris Bonington [In reply to]
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In reply to:
rockprodigy wrote:
In reply to:
You should be bounce testing on your etriers, not your daisies.

Why?

I don't know, I guess that's the way I've always done it. Admittedly, I am no super A4++ aid master. For one thing, I think you should avoid repeatedly shock loading your daisies, especially if you use them as clip in points because this will generate huge forces and wear them out. Furthermore, I think it would be prudent to avoid shockloading the adjustable ones...although that begs the question on the adjustable aiders....

My opinion is that you should clip your daisy to the piece so you don't lose it if it pops but it shouldn't be tight. For me, it's always been easiest just to stand in the bottom stop of the aider and jump up and down.


timpanogos


Apr 21, 2003, 2:00 PM
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Copperhead, am I missing something with the bounce testing?

I aided a 5.12 small finger crack last Friday at Indian Creek. I cammed all but one placement – and so a quick stooping load on the daisy gave a good feel for the cams placement – however the crack got very small at the crux (finger tips only) and my smallest zero’s and aliens were not working – I dropped a number 2 stopper in the crack and bounced it with my butt on the daisy, but could not REALLY bounce it hard without getting on the aider. Butt loading felt solid, but the foot loading in aider slide the nut about 1/4" more before really sticking.

I think it’s true – you can only truly shock load bounce test a piece from the aider (I bounced the heck out of it as I had heavily back cleaned the pitch and was looking at a 30’ if it poped, and had several small placements yet to go above it, which were also going to require some back cleaning)– plus if you popped a piece while butt bouncing (harness instead of your foot) and it pops you are going to have a harder time catching your self on the lower piece, as both legs are bent bouncing.

Chad


copperhead


Apr 21, 2003, 8:40 PM
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Re: Bounce Testing on adj. daisys [In reply to]
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Rockprodigy,
I agree with what you said. I use my aiders to bounce-test pieces almost all of the time. The key is to test low. Down-climb a step to test if you can. The lower in your steps you are, the more stable you are.

Timpanogos,
It is possible to achieve high forces with a daisy bounce-test though you don’t really need to test with your daisy unless you must test from your top steps and it is steep (or kinda steep). I use custom aiders and daisies that are extra long. This allows me to down-climb a step and still be clipped to the tested piece with the daisy. The aiders are A5 6-step (BD made/makes a 6-step aider that is the same overall length as the 5-step A5; I think Yates now makes longer aiders and daisies).

In reply to:
…you are going to have a harder time catching your self on the lower piece, as both legs are bent bouncing.

Bounce-testing with your daisy enables you to place both feet in your lower aiders and stabilize yourself in the event that the upper piece fails the test. Your legs shouldn’t be bent too much and your second daisy should be clipped such that you have just enough slack to accommodate (upper) daisy stretch during bounce testing but no more. Use your arms and legs as shock absorbers and try to prevent any shock from being transmitted to your lower daisy. On dicey aid, the test is the moment of truth – your mind thinks of nothing but the tested piece and the consequences should it fail… you block out reality, bounce the suspect placement, and hope for the best. Intuition, judgment, and the question of how much to test a piece play an important role in the game.


atg200


Apr 21, 2003, 10:51 PM
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timpanogos - do NOT bounce test on free climbs at indian creek!!!!! there is no good reason whatsoever to aid climb at the creek when there are so many excellent aid climbs of every level all over the desert. the only exception to that is to put up a toprope on a hard free climb you couldn't otherwise do, but if you are going to dop that pick one of the thousands of cracks that are stonker C1 with no need to bounce.

desert rock simply doesn't handle bounce testing well. fine and good to do on aid climbs in the fisher towers, but completely unacceptable on free climbs at indian creek.

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