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yadeb
Apr 21, 2003, 4:26 AM
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While reading the thread on monkey/human climbing Kevlar mentioned something that i have been wondering about my self.
a better ??? question....why don/t many none whites climb...are the color challenged people better???
Being black i notice that there are not any brothers at the crag. There are way too many reason for this. Primarly, if you notice Blacks do not get involved with sports of any kind where serious injury or death may happen. :wink: I honetly think its a dumb question and thats most likly the reason no one else here will touch it. But, i must provide food for thought. In line with the monkey/human thing. One species evolved according to what was required to survive. The same rule applies to an ethnic group. If you recall your hisory, Blacks were breed like cattle :x to be bigger,stronger, work longer without food or water. Basiclly to endure pain and continue until the job was done. This had an unforeseen side effect, the domination of all other sports :D . So, No! pigment challanged people :cry: are not better climbers, its just that the majority of blacks think that climbing is one of the dumbest sports out there, and trust me i get a lot of flax from my black friends for climbing. If I were you i would not encourage minorities to the crag or it'll be Tiger Woods all over again. :shock:, And lets face it, there only a few sports left for the pigment challanged. I've been keeping an eye on the few brothers moving into hockey :shock: .
I'm sorry if i offended anyone and i hope that you noted the sarcasim.
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renobdarb
Apr 21, 2003, 4:37 AM
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In reply to: a better question....why don/t many none whites climb... If you recall your hisory, Blacks were breed like cattle to be bigger, stronger, work longer without food or water. Basiclly to endure pain and continue until the job was done. This had an unforeseen side effect, the domination of all other sports.
Maybe that's just it... As "Nat X" from Saturday Night Live said, "They don't feel the need to dominate yet another sport."
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yadeb
Apr 21, 2003, 4:41 AM
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Thanks for not being afraid of this subject! renobdarb.
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social_climber
Apr 21, 2003, 4:46 AM
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I don't quite agree with your reasoning, I think most non-climbers don't really understand the purpose of climbing (it has nothing to do with skin pigment). But, going along with your arguement. I guess I've only seen a couple other "coloured" climbers other than myself. On the other hand, it could be because of where we climb. I'm sure in Japan there's a group of climbers wondering "why don't any of those white folk climb?"
edit: for clarity
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brianthew
Apr 21, 2003, 4:53 AM
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There have always been sports dominated by one race or another for reasons that don't have anything to do actually with race. Golf (historically), tennis, hockey, baseball, etc...even look at things like skateboarding, beach sports, swimming....just one of those things. I know a few black climbers and they haven't a clue either. Perhaps lack of role models and/or exposure to a broad crowd. Who knows.
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drkodos
Apr 21, 2003, 4:55 AM
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Climbing has long been the province of Upper-class White Europeans, for it was mostly only these people that had the time, inclination, and $$$ to climb. Climbing has been an elitist sport, but has since started to trickle down to the masses in most part because capitalism drives manufactureres to keep finding new marketplaces.
Thus the sports climbing boon; an engineered attempt to water down the elitism of the sport and bring it to as many people that are willing to spend the $$$.
Climbing is cultural.
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coldclimb
Apr 21, 2003, 5:06 AM
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My climbing partner is black, but you're right that there aren't very many black people climbing out there. I don't have a clue why, but my friend has trouble with being too muscular on climbs. He's the same size as I am, but he weighs 40 pounds more. He can also bench more, but he has trouble with hand strength and endurance. Maybe black people have more muscle mass in general? But then this brings up the question of why there are so few black girls climbing too.
Honestly, I don't think there is a reason. It's kinda like asking why you don't like a certain taste or something like that. There's no real explanation, you just do.
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sid_rock
Apr 21, 2003, 5:25 AM
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I am a non-white who just started climbing and I have a theory that explains why whites climb more than non-whites.
(Caveat: The following argument makes liberal use of generalizations and stereotypes, which such a discussion requires. No offense is meant to any group.)
White people are bored. They are rich. They are educated. They are powerful. They own this planet, and they have little else to conquer. (Well, maybe Iraq.) Much like a married couple bored with mainstream sex, white folks must constantly find new ways of entertaining themselves, because playing lacrosse and croquette no longer does the trick. Therefore, they engage in sports/activities where the thrill level is raised by the constant presence of a possibility of being injured/maimed/killed.
Black folks, and other colored folks, on the other hand, have a more pressing issue at hand: to rise up the social and economic ladder, and garner some respect, money and power. Engaging in activities that jeopardizes their lives does not appeal to them yet, because they are still working on carving a niche for themselves in their world. And therefore, they don't climb, surf, skydive, and jump over the Grand Canyon in motorbikes.
I truly believe if white folks had to worry about getting stared at the next time they walked into a fancy restaurant, if they had to worry about fighting a system where they were stereotyped as inept, if they had to worry about getting out of the projects, they would climb less.
Now that I have, hopefully, definitively answered this question, why don't you all go back and answer the MORE important question--do monkeys climb better than us? (Remember, ultimately it's not going to be whites vs. blacks; it's going to be monkeys vs. humans.)
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maculated
Apr 21, 2003, 5:35 AM
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I agree with Sid 100%. Every climber I know is focused on their ability to grasp leisure time. I have been climbing with non-whites lately, but these non-whites seem to have found that they are suddenly very wealthy thanks to Sillicon Valley and are now rediscovering the outdoors.
Look at the folks who pioneered the sport: mainly white college kids going to Cal. And those kids were upper-middle class if they could afford to take off forever to go climbing and still be going to school (until they went dirtbagging).
Don't see too many dirtbag folks who had to rise up, do you?
I always wondered why all the Mexicans running the town of Mammoth never went skiing. They could afford it, but they were too busy getting things like cars, and oh, a better life. I had some racist friends that actually said stuff like, "They were from hot climates, not inclined to ski then." Right.
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sycamore
Apr 21, 2003, 5:36 AM
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I'm glad someone posted about this, because it is something I have been pondering as of late. My question was, "Why have I never seen a black climber?" Of course, I know that my lack of exposure to most climbing areas out of state would explain some of this, but I've never seen a black man or woman in a climbing magazine either. I'm glad people are hypothesizing as to why this is.
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yadeb
Apr 21, 2003, 5:44 AM
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Thank you all so much for your in put. I think social climber came pretty close. I'm in Utah 98% white, hes in Alberta which is most likly the same. exsposure is a big factor, so is the social/ economic status thing. I just want to add, guys please keep it light hearted and funny.
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monkeyarm
Apr 21, 2003, 5:49 AM
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I posted a similar question a while ago. here's teh link
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bones
Apr 21, 2003, 8:11 AM
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Let's see... How would I 1)express my anger at history,2) point out that blacks are better atheletes than whites, 3)take advantage of an overly sensitive PC society, and 4)otherwise whine all at the same time while keeping myself safe from any flaming?
I know! I'll say what I want to say and just write it all off to sarcasm!
Really dude, I don't know why else you would post this topic, because I just don't see the humor in it.
BTW, you don't see too many "pigment rich" swimmers either. Hmmm, water must be an "elitist" medium.
Who really cares what color your climbing partner is? Just as long as they don't drop you on belay!
FLAMEGUARD2000: I'm sorry if anyone was offended and I hope you noted the sarcasm. FLAMEGUARD2000
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jansuw
Apr 21, 2003, 10:16 AM
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The social glass struggle makes the most sense! I go to an international school here in Malaysia and i've been spending a lot of time with younger kids who are getting into climbing (Middle Schoolers). The majority of the kids are white, but so is the school population. However whenever black kids come in they clearly start off at a (WAY!) higher level than anyone else. All the white kids are either spoiled to death and expect too much of themselves and quit when they fail or are incredible unfit because they love their coke, french fries and candy. Asian/black kids going to my school don't have this whole social standing struggle and perform better at climbing. The cultures they come from also don't promote the same kind of unhealthy lifestyle. The black kids at my school however, are mostly from Africa, not Black-American. It would make sense to me that everyone expect fat lazy white boys would get into climbing, and be way better! However almost all climbers at my school are white. I have NO idea why... :?
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craggy
Apr 21, 2003, 1:52 PM
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Of the 3 black climbers I've climbed with over the last 2.5 years all 3 have been kick ass. They are strong mofos and usually send a problem way before me. I think the reason there are few blacks climbing is the whole hockey thing. Climbing, historically, has been a past-time of the lunatic Europeans. The exposure in years past is geared more towards the middle-upper class white folks out there. Marketing for climbing is also filled with white faces in white places. Blacks dominate such sports as basketball, football, running! etc... mostly cause these sports don't cost a bagillion dollars. Hockey is freakin expensive to play! As for the other non-white folks. In my gym the best climbers are Asian. Light-weight, strong and methodical in nature, they are awesome climbers. I mostly see white boys and gals clinging desparately to the wall with their weak hereditary blood.
Personally, I'd love to see a "Tiger Woods" phenom come along and whoop that bratty little Sharma's ASS!!!
Craggy
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swoop
Apr 21, 2003, 2:04 PM
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I go to college in Atlanta. I have been climbing for about a year and have never seen a black climber at the gym or even at Boatrock. ( A little boulderfield very close to metropolitan Atlanta.) I think Atlanta has enough black people that some of them have to be rich and want to climb. Go figure.
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keinangst
Apr 21, 2003, 2:34 PM
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There was a book written about black athletes a couple years ago. Basically, western Africans have more dense, fast-twitch muscle fibers and tend to be very dense and strong. East Africans are more tall and lean, and tend to dominate the hell out of the marathon circuit (hello, Kenya?? :wink: )
However, I believe that, more than the socioeconomic barrier (a valid point, but not so much anymore), the muscle/bone density issue doesn't lend itself to climbing (or swimming!) as well as more power-oriented sports. Ask a sports physiologist why there aren't many Olympic-level black swimmers, and you should get a similar answer.
And one more thing--it's not just race alone. Look at the "best" black baseball players. A disproportionate amount of great players are black Caribbeans, lending some cred to the notion that there is a strong economic advancement component to their motivation and skill. My $0.02.
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craggy
Apr 21, 2003, 2:41 PM
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ps For Sid - Monkeys ALL the way!
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robmcc
Apr 21, 2003, 3:31 PM
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Ultimately it's a social question. A lot of people are talking about atheletic aptitude, which I don't think has much of anything to do with it. If one race has an edge in some particular sport (like the Kenyan dominance of distance running), that might give you a good clue who will fill the top rungs of the sport, but let's be honest here. I doubt anyone reading this is even on the same ladder. We are not doing 5.14s and agonizing over whether our latest accomplishment is a 15 or 14d.
That's all I can add, I'm afraid. I've noticed the same thing and sometimes wondered at it. Finding an answer would be interesting, but I think you'd have to go interview a lot of people and ask "If you don't climb, why not?" and just see what people have to say. Maybe, "If I offered to take you climbing today, would you go? Why or why not?" I don't think it's a money issue. Unlike sid_rock, I think people of all races can be found all up and down the socioeconomic ladder (based on experience and observation, not guesswork). Also, most of the people I've climbed with over the years haven't been well off at all. The "poor climber" stereotype seems to be a good fit.
Interesting sociology project if anyone needs one. :)
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curt
Apr 21, 2003, 3:45 PM
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Here is another link to the previous thread about race and climbing. Hopefully you can click on this to view it. This thread goes on for 10 pages.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21044&highlight=minority
Curt
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keinangst
Apr 21, 2003, 5:50 PM
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This is something that might have been better in that old thread, but I'll try to fit it in here:
I've read about 90% of the posts on both threads, and I haven't seen the following things mentioned:
1. Many young Af-Am people are living in homes where discimination was the norm in the previous generation. The sensibilities of people who grew up under segregation lend themselves to a few culturally-distinct ideas--like an emphasis on community, solidarity, family, and hard work to improve one's socioeconomic status (this is to say little for the incredible barriers that many worked to overcome in the 50's and 60's, etc). Consequently, these values are often passed on to the kids, even though the proverbially "playing field" is a lot more level now than it was in their parents' era. So while you might look at a couple of kids, one white, one black, from the same socioeconomic stratus, there are always cultural differences underlying their motivations. Back to the family/community notion being more prevalent in Af-Am culture (also in Hispanic and Asian cultures, statistically, although it tends to lessen as the family is "assimilated" into the mainstream), it seems to follow that team sports would be the more obvious and accessible choice for a black kid, as it tends to be reinforced by his peers from the same culture. Add the disproportionately higher concentration of Af-Am people in urban areas and you also stack the deck against them for wilderness activities in general.
2. I see no more resistance to hiking/camping/climbing in black people (or any other historical "minority") than in white people who have never been exposed to it. That's just an observation, but I'd bet anything that I'd have an easier time getting a black friend or coworker out to the crag that I would getting my white, middle-class gf. She sees it as a "guys' sport". So I guess it's time for the sexist thread :D
Sorry for the rant.
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wandt
Apr 21, 2003, 7:18 PM
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What about the socio-economic factor? I hate to point it out, but in most cities, the black population is still largely in the bottom earning bracket. Sports that require the purchase of equipment just don't fly. Basketball and baseball just need a ball (and a stick for baseball) and some space. Public basketballl hoops are everywhere. Football is a school/club-centred sport. The pads are suppplied- no major purchase is needed.
On the other end is hockey, lacrosse, tennis, golf, climbing, etc. Hockey and lacrosse require expensive sticks, pads, etc. I don't know of any school that provides them. Here in Canada, for instance, to the best of my knowledge, there aren't any highschool hockey or lacrosse teams. The initial outlay for either of these sports would be around $500+. (Note: alll prices are approximate and are in CDN$) Golf and tennis cost less for equipment (you can rent golf clubs, I guess) but the facilities are pricey. Golf course and tennis club mmemberships/fees are daunting to any but the affluent. No family on a tight budget can really get into either. (Yes, there are public tennis courts, but the quality of asphault tennis is WAY below clay tennis.
That brings us to climbing. Assuming that the starting climber climbs indoors only for an entire year before venturing outside, thus the cost of a rope, TRing gear and quickdraws (let alone a trad rack) are not included, the initial cost will still be around $500. Beginner's course, harness, shoes, gym fee, etc. It all adds up. The next trick is finding a partner. Already, they must have similar disposable income. After that first year, if the climbers would like to go outside, costs skyrocket. $150 rope, $150 sport rack, TR gear, $1000+ trad rack, new shoes (their old ones have worn out by now- constant use, beginner footwork). And then there's the trouble of getting to the crags. Any of you without cars know what a bitch that is. Cars are another expense.
Finally, there's the "cultural" side. I'm neither black, nor from the inner-city,, and my folks are teachers, so I do not have direct contact with the "labouring caste", but I think it is probably universal in that parents will encourage their children most to get involved with activities they know and trust. (My g/f is from a higher tax-bracket than me, and her Dad is very leary of her getting into climbing- it's not all $). Climbing IS new to the mainstream sporting community, and so far has been largely caucasian. It is a slow process for cultural groups to be exposed to new things, and even an slower one for them to become heavily involved with them. Suburban blacks (and other visible minorities from the 'burbs) will gradually find their way into climbing, but until the racial economic demographic shifts, I foresee climbing remaining largely white.
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fixxervi6
Apr 21, 2003, 7:40 PM
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I don't think it has anything to do with socio ecomic BS or any of that, and as far as leasure time, I don't think its that either, I've tried to get several well income blacks into outdoors to try climbing, they didn't want any part of it, however, one is gung how about trying it, however, he doesn't even know the first thing about it, maybe he'll change his mind afterwards, and he is gung ho about trying biking as well, now, here is the strange part, all of my black friends from the US have no interest in scuba, biking, or climbing, however, my scuba buddy, who is black, has a craving for it all, but he is from nigeria, he doesn't have the same social exposure as the ones from the US, I think its totally social thing.
One guy I here at work, I asked him if he wanted to try scuba with me and his reply was brothers don't do water. Yet my scuba buddy from over the big pond is really into it... I think its a social thing.
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mreardon
Apr 21, 2003, 8:01 PM
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Mostly it's about exposure, not socio-economics, genetics, or any other blather people want to put on it. People who run the media companies tend to report on what they believe is important to the subscriber base. Advertisers do the same thing. So far people like seeing white guys at the top of the game (or who spray the loudest at least) and blonde chicks in skimpy tops. Therefore the only pics we see are those. This isn't representative of the climbing community as a whole by a long shot. At least not here in California and in a handful of other countries.
While it is true that there are not a lot of blacks in the climbing community, it doesn't mean they are non-existent, just not reported about. On Sunday I ran into a friend who happens to be black and who regularly climbs 5.13 sport. He's not doing 5.15 therefore I suppose he's not worth reporting about. And he's not the only person out there, just the first friend that came to mind.
It's like that with all minorities in climbing. Sure there are one or two asians (and latinos?) we read about, just last week there were only three of us "white guys" in a crowd of about 15 at the local bouldering spot. Of course none of us climb harder than V12 therefore we're not worth reporting about.
And this goes with women as well. I went bouldering at the Happy's last week and ran into some friends, one of them is an Italian woman who sent a V11 on her third go. But since she's not American and blonde working V10s I guess she's not worthy of the press. I remember climbing with another girl in the Needles as she sent a 5.11 crack. She's not blonde and pushing 5.13 cracks therefore even though she's black, she's not newsworthy.
It's all about media perception and those that want it. Remember, there's no money in being a sponsored climber in America (even the top folks make maybe $30k in climbing sponsorships, the rest comes outside of this industry). So unless your ego demands getting a picture or a free pair of shoes, you'd be surprised at how many good climbers (of all backgrounds) exist outside of what you read.
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tim
Apr 21, 2003, 8:08 PM
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1) Mike Freeman
2) (whatshisface from S. Africa)
3) chick I met at the needles pulling down on hard 5.12
It would appear that the draw is less strong for some communities than others. You don't see a lot of white distance runners at the top end of the sport, but they are there and some do excel.
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