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slabbyd
Apr 22, 2003, 5:50 PM
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I spent 11 hours on a wall Sunday, drank three quarts of water and still managed to come out dehydrated. Any tips on staying hydrated?
Obviously I SHOULD DRINK MORE WATER!
Other that, anyone have favorite beneficial drink mixes?
What do you store it in for immediate access? Nalgenes, Camel Backs, something else?
How much do you go through in a day?
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copperhead
Apr 22, 2003, 5:55 PM
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This thread is redundant... maybe post to the existing thread...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=29475
If you don't delete this thread, I will be forced to send you a barrage of PMs so that we can keep the wank factor of this forum to a minimum. We don't want things to get too complicated or overly complex, you know... Efficiency is key!
:lol:
:wink:
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kman
Apr 22, 2003, 6:12 PM
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Obviously you should drink more water. :wink:
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drkodos
Apr 22, 2003, 6:22 PM
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Bring a coffee filter and you can recycle your own urine.....
A close friend and & I managed to survive a harrowing ascent of an un-named Catskill peak one time with this very survival tool.
Two days away from our last drink of precious H2O and almost 30 minutes away from our vehicle, the only hope was to distill our own liquid gold.
Thankfully Andy had a coffee filter to save the day!
I never go anywhere without a coffee filter.
And a towel in case a person needs work on their aim.
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rockprodigy
Apr 22, 2003, 6:42 PM
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You're supposed to be dehydrated...if you're not, you brought too much water.
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copperhead
Apr 22, 2003, 7:38 PM
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In reply to: You're supposed to be dehydrated...if you're not, you brought too much water.
Supposed to be? And then you get a nasty headache, can't think straight, and have no energy. Sounds like fun.
Bring enough water plus a little extra... unless you want to become good friends with John Dill...
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passthepitonspete
Apr 22, 2003, 7:42 PM
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I'm one of these people who can run forever on nothing - no food, no water. Not sure how. I don't bonk, rarely get thirsty. Don't sweat as much as some, either, except when I'm scared, but I find it's still mind over matter. I also avoid climbing when it's hot!
But my suggestion would be to drink a LOT of water before starting out. Some people need more water than others, and you could be one of them.
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serra_da_leba
Apr 22, 2003, 8:43 PM
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From what I understand it's not just a matter of drinking enough water, but also replinishing salts and other minerals. Bring something with salt on it like a few peanuts and chew on them before rehydrating. This will allow your dehydrating body to absorb water more effectively. Along wiht the salt, potasssium tablets help too. You can also go with the energy drinks.
Cheers,
Dan
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flamer
Apr 22, 2003, 10:08 PM
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I have had problems getting dehydrated and bonking on walls. The things that seem to work for me are as follows. Get a good nights sleep the night before you start...a tired body works much less efficiently. When you wake up force yourself to eat, also drink a quart of Gatorade before you start- build up that sodium "bank". Along those lines- PREHYDRATION IS KEY! For a couple of days a head of time you should be drinking all the water you can handle! Start hydrated!
On a wall, or whatever, I've found my biggest problem is digging things out of the bag. Keep water and food readily asscessable. A camelback seems to work quite well for this. Also I like to keep food in my pockets, especially energy gels....they are very easy to eat even when you're "not hungry" but need to get some calories and salt in you.
Also find your "balance"- for example I know that if I don't maintain my fluids and eat I bonk at the 18 hour mark. Learn your limits.
hope that helped....
josh
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thegodfather
Apr 22, 2003, 10:12 PM
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i just wear the basic camelbak, its light, holds alot of water, and doesnt really get in the way.
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zacrobinson
Apr 22, 2003, 10:59 PM
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when i got into a good habit of keeping myself very hydrated all the time I also took up sunflower seeds. they arent too filling and have salt on them to help me retain all of the water i take in.
I also know they have some proteins and good fats i think but dont quote me on that
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fixxervi6
Apr 22, 2003, 11:50 PM
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NOW THIS!!!
is something I have battled with for YEARS to the point of SERIOUS hospital trips despite drinking and pissin every 10 minutes.
There are different "types" of people that sweat here, salt sweaters and non salt, if your cloths and stuff end up with salt stains, your a salt sweater, and you must increase your salt intake or you can drink all day long and you can still dehydrate because your body WILL NOT retain any water that you drink.
I was a biker long before I was a climber, and I am a FAR stronger biker than I am a climber, and biking in the Texas hell I had a new enemy, heat, I've been in the hospital more than one time for dehydration, even tho I drank like a fish and was taking a pee every 10 minutes, I still dehydrated to the point of vomiting, high heart rate, and unconciousness (spell).
So it got to the point that I almost gave up my first passion due to the unbearable pain it put me through EVERY time I went out, no matter what I drank or did so my research started.
I have discovered, that 1st off, it takes more than water to get the trick done, pure water is not good for hydration, and sports drinks have enough sugar to put a freakin horse on a sugar buzz, I suggest Cytomax, it has NO sugar in it, and will help your body retain some water without the sugar high,
however
over long periods of time, like hiking 3 hours in the hot ass sun hauling your big azz pack you suck down lots of water, well you also burn the hell out of your carbs, this is where power gel and gu come in, since WATER and or CYTOMAX does not contain sugar, you need to keep some carbs in there, power gel and gu and good quickies but power bars work best, they keep your pumper running.
AND SALT
INCREASE YOUR SALT INTAKE, we are not fat slobs sittin on the couch shuvin down twinkies, ignore those freakin adds about salt kills, WRONG, salt is very good, it makes your muscles "fire" and helps keep you hydrated.
Caffine and simple sugars will BOMB your ability to retain water and increase your chance of dehydration.
High protien low carb diets ARE THE WORST for dehydration!!!
For the purposes of staying lean and mean I went on the low carb diet thinking carbs were evil.... after some research, THIS turned out to be the root of my problems.
Some carbs are good, too much will dehydrate you, I started drinking about 3 sodas a week, increased my salt intake, got away from cafine, and started drinkin cytomax.
NOW
I can go out in 100 degree heat and pump out some miles on my bike without fear of dehydration, and I have yet to make it back in the hospital since I changed my diet up, it worked for me, but I think it depends on your bodies chemistry.
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fixxervi6
Apr 22, 2003, 11:54 PM
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Gatoraid BLOWS
too much freakin sugar, cut it with water if thats what you want to drink.
DO NOT use soda to hydrate, too much sugar.
BEER (no hate responses, please) is real bad, even 2 days before a hell beater of a trip it can affect your ability to hydrate.
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epic_ed
Apr 23, 2003, 3:55 AM
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Ditto the info on needing to replenish electrolytes (sodium, magnesium, calcium, potassium, chlorine). Salts are only part of the equation. One of the greatest risk factor that precipitates rescues in the Grand Canyon is hyponatremia -- basically a low concentration of sodium and other electrolytes in the blood stream. If you start to bonk on a wall, but you're still pissing a lot, then this is not dehydration. It's hyponatremia, and tossing down more water will just exacerbate the condition. Be sure you have enough water, but just as important, make sure you can replenish the electrolytes you're burning through while you're getting worked on that 4 hour lead.
Ed
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copperhead
Apr 23, 2003, 5:06 AM
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I recommend Gatoritas.
Add a little tequila to your favorite flavor of Gatorade in a 1-liter bottle, shake, and enjoy. Gatoritas can be sipped at any time of the day and provide the necessary salts/electrolytes and 'flavor' to keep you going. Booze Muffler required.
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geckoee
Apr 23, 2003, 5:12 AM
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Drink a whole gallon of water the night before. You may piss a lot of it out before you hike off to your base the next day, but you will be fully saturated with water. It's easier to cary the water in you than in your pack.
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glockaroo
Apr 24, 2003, 1:59 PM
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The info here (esp. from that poor Texas cycler... wow dude!) on electrolytes and blood sugar levels is quite good. Go here and read up on the science of how your body actually absorbs the water into your bloodstream. You will find that a mild glucose solution containing electrolytes is the best way to maximize this transfer.
I am a very heavy sweater yet I leveraged this info to hike in and back out of the Grand Canyon in a day during the dead of summer. Twice. Every ranger who asked what I was doing predicted my demise. I grinned at them at the end of the day, after a fine meal from the Lodge of course.
Downing quart after quart of plain water doesn't cut it (for most folks) when the heat's really on. All bigwall machismo tomfoolery aside, alcohol works against you every time. Perhaps you could dig an empty OE can from the Deli trash (or from behind the rescue site), fill it w/ electrolyte drink, and slip it into a Booze Muffler just to save face.
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brutusofwyde
Apr 24, 2003, 4:26 PM
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Agree there is some good information here. I have had serious problems with heat in the past, ranging from heat exhaustion to sunstroke to dehydration-induced kidney damage. (Of course, I have foolishly headed up walls during numerous heat waves)
Here are some things that I have found that work for me when the temperature on the walls exceeds 110 degrees and all you can do in the middle of the night is lay on top of your sleeping bag on the portaledge and sweat:
Stay out of the sun and ventilate.
I generally wear light colored, loose fitting long sleeve shirt with buttons and light colored loosefitting long pants. Hat with a brim. If wearing a helmet, a well-ventilated one with a hankerchief taped across the back to keep the sun off my neck. Sometimes I have gone so far as to pitch the portaledge above me as a shade when belaying.
Don't take antihistamines or decongestants. These exascerbate dehydration.
Take plenty of water, and have it available. In the most severe heat, 1.5 gallons per person per day may not be enough. I generally take about 50% water and 50% gatorade, the gatorade pre-mixed at half strength in colored 2-liter bottles, the water in clear 2-liter bottles. While on lead, I carry a 1-liter nalgene bottle with gatorade. This has duct-tape (about 1/4 roll for a wall) wrapped on the outside for padding edges, sealing the food bucket, or whatever. If the lead is one of those 8 or 10 hour bomb-squad-belayer-crouched-behind-sandbag affairs, I'll send the bottle down on the zip for a refill if needed.
Utilize booty water. I never go up a wall without iodine water purification tablets. These can not only be used to purify booty water, but they can provide a rough idea of booty water quality: If the booty water turns cloudy after addition of one iodine tablet, you have indication of significant biological growth. Best to use that stuff to wet your clothes to stay cool, rather than drink it. If it stays clear, let it sit for 1/2 hour then add gatorade to neutralize the iodine. Then drink.
The haul bag is an ice chest. For a multi-day wall, if you know you will be climbing in the heat, if you can rely on it, and are determined to go up anyway, freeze about half of your water supply. The padding and clothing in the haul bag makes a surprisingly effective insulating layer, allowing for incredible relief for the first half of the wall, not to mention keeps your perishable cold and crisp.
"If you're too dehydrated for gatoritas, you're too dehydrated."
Brutus
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sspssp
Apr 24, 2003, 5:18 PM
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When I'm working out hard (and sweating) simple sugar such as is found in gatorade seems to pick my energy back up. Why is this a bad thing? My body needs the calories. I can understand that the body uses some of the water up to digest the sugar, but that would be true of any carb, woudn't it? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.
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glockaroo
Apr 24, 2003, 6:29 PM
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In reply to: When I'm working out hard (and sweating) simple sugar such as is found in gatorade seems to pick my energy back up. Why is this a bad thing? My body needs the calories. I can understand that the body uses some of the water up to digest the sugar, but that would be true of any carb, woudn't it? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.
Hey, no arguing around here, no sir. Not at this site, Bucko! :lol:
My understanding is that the the simple sugar in Gatorade is primarily sucrose, or table sugar. My reading of the available data shows that the sucrose solution in the digestive tract (especially at the very high concentrations present in Gatorade) actually impedes the absorption of water into the body. Milder glucose or fructose solutions, however, speed the absorption of water into the bloodstream. Thus the Gatorade forumulation actually works against your efforts to rehydrate, but this is offset somewhat by the electrolytes so it's still better than plain water most of the time. The more ideal option is a mild glucose solution like Gookinaid or a maltodextrin/fructose solution yielded by drinking plain water after eating a GU packet.
The problem is that such a mild solution doesn't taste real good, especially when you're not exercizing hard. Gatorade tries to make their stuff taste good all the time to all people, so they jack up the sucrose content until the stuff is like Kool-Aid. Gookinaid tastes like mildly sweet sweat... because that's what it's replacing.
This info, by the way, is completely in line with Mark Twight's advice in his book... the title of which I can't remember but the thing is chock full of usefull data for wall climbers. You don't have to be an alpinist to benefit from his expertise in athletic performance.
One tidbit that may be apocryphal: I read somewhere that while the ingredients of today's Gatorade are pretty much the same as the original formula, the original was meant to be cut by half with water. The Florida football players that were the guinea pigs for Gatorade in the '60s/ '70s were told to drink a cup of the stuff, then immediately follow it with a cup of plain water. Exactly in keeping with Brutus' good advice.
Those interested in maximizing your wall performance should peruse the Twight book, and check out the tons of info on the 'net from the adventure racing crowd. I learned this stuff years ago for my solo Grand Canyon hikes and it worked great. I then applied it to solo wall climbing and it really helped with staying energized and hydrated.
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brutusofwyde
Apr 24, 2003, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: When I'm working out hard (and sweating) simple sugar such as is found in gatorade seems to pick my energy back up. Why is this a bad thing? My body needs the calories. I can understand that the body uses some of the water up to digest the sugar, but that would be true of any carb, woudn't it? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.
Whew. This is a huge, complex subject.
Short answer is, it is not such a bad thing. E.R.G. may be one of the optimum drinks for quick rehydration, however for the leader strung out on an aid pitch in the baking sun, gatorade is just as effective when taken in little sips throughout the lead.
"Simple sugar" is not so simple, although it is a simplistic and inaccurate term.
The only carbohydrate that the body can utilize directly is glucose, which which is needed by the brain at a concentration of somewhere around 60 meq/L.
Complex carbohydrates such as starch, and sucrose (which is a complex i.e. multi-ring sugar: Sucrose, a 1,2'-glycoside
[2-0 -(alpha-D-Glucopyranosyl)-beta-D-fructofuranoside)]) must be converted by hydrolysis into glucose before entering the bloodstream. Fortunately, this process often begins as soon as you put the stuff in your mouth, where such enzymes as salivary amylase begin the process. This is the process to which you refer as using "up some water to digest the sugar". Fructose, lactose, maltose, and other simple sugars also require conversion to glucose before entering the bloodstream. This process is accomplished by digestive enzymes and generally does not involve hydrolysis.
Glycolysis, the process of metabolizing glucose, occurs in each individual cell, and does not use up water: Glucose is the perfect "quick energy" sugar because it is, in essence, already digested. It can move directly into the bloodstream without any biochemical legerdermain. once in the bloodstream, excess glucose can be stored locally (in muscles) or centrally (in the liver) as glycogen for later use. Issues of insulin-glucose interactions are a whole 'nuther complex subject which we will (hopefully) not get into here.
Gatorade [TM] supplies sugar in three forms: Glucose (for quick energy) sucrose and fructose. The sucrose and fructose take some time to be converted to glucose, thus supplying energy for longer term activities.
I personally prefer Gatorade [TM] at half strength for several reasons.
First, I find full strength to be too sweet.
Second, althogh an isotonic (same concentration as blood electrolytes) energy drink (such as full-strength E.R.G. [TM]) enters the blood stream faster, a slightly hypotonic drink helps counteract the naturally hypertonic condition which occurs in the bloodstream during dehydration, requiring less work by the kidneys (i.e. less reabsorbtion of water through countercurrent exchange in the Loop of Henle.)
Third, Gatorade is readily available in most supermarkets, and relatively inexpensive when purchased in quantity.
Hope this helps.
Brutus
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