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roseraie
Apr 27, 2003, 5:33 AM
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OK sorry to ask yet another elbow question (I already searched the forums), but I think what it plaguing me might be different from "tennis elbow."
I'm a newbie 20-year-old female. I climb in a gym 2 or 3 days a week, and outside once or twice a week usually. I mostly boulder, recently mostly in the cave, in the gym, and I climb sport outside, more technical stuff.
My left elbow ached a bit a couple months ago, so I took a few weeks off, and I was fine to climb afterward, it hasn't bugged me again until yesterday.
Yesterday, in the gym, it started hurting so bad I couldn't climb at all and I seriously wanted to cry. It started hurting while mantling on a big sloper (though I didn't tweak it in any way) and so I grabbed a jug but the pulling motion was UNBEARABLY PAINFUL...
Anyways, today I can't even straighten my arm, much less pull with it (had to cancel a trip, boo.)
The pain is above my left elbow, on the back of my arm. It hurts while just relaxing, and while pulling, but not while pushing. Bending the arm doesn't hurt, but straightening it does.
Is this tennis elbow? I know I should see a doctor if the pain persists. But I guess I'm curious if this is a normal climbing injury. I've been told by various people to ice it, heat it, massage it, etc. but I don't know what's right...
Thanks... :)
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galt
Apr 27, 2003, 6:51 AM
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I had a similar problem in my elbows about 2 weeks ago and as soon as I left the gym I came here in need of relief. I used the Forum Search function and looked up Elbow. You'll get the phone book, but the info. is worth going though. Anyway I never figured out what I had, but I did read that doing a few push-ups would relieve some of the pressure. Needless to say I dropped and pumped out a few and the pressure all but disapeared. Now I warm up with a few push-ups and cool down between climbs with some as well. Although my elbow still hurts after a rough climb the push-ups have helped.
Anyway goodluck, hope the pain goes away so you can climb on, and no matter what you learn here if the pain doesn't subside in a few days you really should probably go to a Dr.
Hope this helps
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psalmadventurer
Apr 27, 2003, 10:53 PM
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hey-
I am so sorry about your elbow pain! 'Tis the season for injuries, although, I guess that's every season..anyway, this may/may not help, it is from the book "Climbing: Training for Peak Performance" by Clyde Soles
With your arm at your side, palm facing forward: if the pain is on the outside (thumb side), it could be lateral epicondylitis (tennis elbow); pain on the inside could be medial epicondylitis (golfer's elbow); and pain in the middle could be anterior epicondylitis (climber's elbow). He also suggests reverse wrist curls to balance muscles...
I hope and pray you will be feeling better and back to climbing asap.
jenn
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roseraie
Apr 28, 2003, 5:03 AM
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The pain is DEFINITELY on the inside... what is "golfer's elbow?" Goodness, I want it to STOP HURTING! I can't even turn doorknobs left-handed.
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renobdarb
Apr 28, 2003, 5:16 AM
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In reply to: The pain is DEFINITELY on the inside... what is "golfer's elbow?" Goodness, I want it to STOP HURTING! I can't even turn doorknobs left-handed.
hey there! i have something very similar going on with my elbow... it's pain in the elbow that's hard to pinpoint by "pointing" it out, but rather feels like it's deep "inside" my elbow... then i have pain that runs up the top of my arm and into my shoulder just a little... does this sound familiar?
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enigma
Apr 28, 2003, 6:07 AM
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In reply to: The pain is DEFINITELY on the inside... what is "golfer's elbow?" Goodness, I want it to STOP HURTING! I can't even turn doorknobs left-handed.
sounds bad, how many days is this going on??? maybe you strained or pulled something. maybe you should see a doctor, if the pain hurts so much, don't suffer needlessly. :!: :idea:
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roseraie
Apr 28, 2003, 8:06 AM
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renobdarb, yeah it does... it only hit my shoulder right when I hurt it though.
It's been going on since Friday. I want to go to a doctor... but it's midterms.. and I have to work... so I won't get to until late this week.
Urg. I don't want to stop climbing. SILLY INJURIES!
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redpoint73
Apr 28, 2003, 11:45 AM
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Sound like tennis elbow. Its tendonitis caused by the muscle imbalance. The muscles in the bottom of your forearm are being used constantly to grip the rock, while the opposing ("antagonistic") muscles on the top of your forearms are not being strengthened. The unbalanced tension on the elbow joint causes tendonitis and pain. You have to exercise the "antagonistic" muscles in order to regain balance.
First you need to heal the tendonitis so that it hurts less. You probably need to climb light or not at all for a week or 2. Using ice and anti-inflammatories (ibuprofen) will reduce teh swelling and spped healing. Once the pain is greatly reduced or gone, you strengthen the opposing muscles by ding reverse wrist curls: You will need a dumbbell. Start with an amount of weight that will cause failure after about 3 reps of 15 curls. Somewhere between 10-20 lbs. is good for most climbers. Prop your forearm on a bench or table so your hand is hanging over the edge. Hold the dumbbell in your hand, so the topof your hand is facing the ceiling. Then slowly raise the dumbbell (bending at the wrist) as high as you can, keeping your forearm on the table. return to the starting position (horizontal). Repeat for 10-15 reps. Do a few more reps until failure, and also do your other arm. You will real feel the burn in the muscles "opposing" the ones that get sore when you climb.
Do the reverse wrist curls maybe 3 times a week. You will need to continue them all the time in order to maintain muscle balance. But it only takes 5-10 minutes every few days.
If you follow this, you should be free of elbow pain, or it will be kept under control at the very least. If you look at "Training for Climibng" by Eric Horst, he has a better explanation of reverse wrist curls, with photos. He also has a good overview of all types of climbing injuries.
Doing pushups will not really help your elbow, but it can't hurt either. Pushups mainly works the pecs, which oppose the lats and keeps your shoulder in balance. So doing pushups is good for avoiding shoulder pain.
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kunzie
Apr 28, 2003, 1:02 PM
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In reply to: I've been told by various people to ice it, heat it, massage it, etc. but I don't know what's right...
As much as this has been said in previous topics, the whole RICED option is best for soft-tissue injury. By heating it and massaging the injury the blood flow is increased, which means more seeps out so the swelling which may or may not be visible is increased, meaning more healing time.
Rest, ice, compression, elevation and diagnosis. The first 4 reduce blood flow, whereas the last is as it sounds :wink:
Hope it heals quick
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zachres
Apr 28, 2003, 1:18 PM
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I had a similar problem, recently, but on the outside of my elbow... the pain actualy radiates throughout my arm. I've broken my scaphoid (wrist) twice, and I spent a total of 11 months in 2 casts... the culprit was pretty easy to identify. I have strength and especially atrophied connective tissue issues all up and down my left arm/shoulder/elbow/wrist.
I highly recommend going to a doctor to be 100% certain, but I can almost predict exactly what they will tell you; "rest, don't use it for 6 weeks." My general practitioner snickered as he said this, because he and I both know that this will never happen.
Here's what has helped for me:
I changed my weight training a little...
1. No Pull-Ups for 3 weeks and no Lat Pull-Downs for a week, then I went down 30% in weight in my Pull-Downs for about a month (gradualy working back up), and I ONLY do Pull-Ups when I am very warmed up and have stretched my arms and shoulders very well
2. I varied my bicep curls from strictly straigth bar-bell to dynamic dumbell curls... twisting from a hammer curl position to a bicep curl position on the way up and down.
3. I began working out my rotator cuffs consistently, and I began putting more lateral and front raises (shoulders) into my workouts. I also completely eliminated upright rows.... Keep in mind that what may be happening is that your upper arm and elbow may be compensating for a weakness in your shoulder... taking more weight than is natural. In my case, I also have atrophied muscles in my rotator cuff and the opposite side of my neck... this may be creating an imbalance that my elbow is suffering from.
4. I obsessively stretch my shoulders and arms... I learned some fantastic stretches from my chiropractor (some of them are actually fantastic doctors with rare insight) that are helping to balance out my shoulders.
I also have begun wearing a Tennis Elbow brace whenever I climb, and I've been avoiding long, overhanging routes, especially in the gym.
Most importantly, I trained the muscles that work in opposition to the muscle that is hurting... I do a lot of wrist curls, both ways, as a previous poster mentioned (sage advice). Resting just doesn't make sense to me. I also play with a fantastic device in my office called a Dyna Flex ball www.dynaflex-intl.com .This thing is great training for forearms.. feels just like climbing.
Keep in mind, I AM NOT A DOCTOR. Just a climber that trains a lot.
I would highly recommed talking to a professional, to make sure you aren't on the road to permanently injuring yourself.
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renobdarb
Apr 28, 2003, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: renobdarb, yeah it does... it only hit my shoulder right when I hurt it though. It's been going on since Friday. I want to go to a doctor... but it's midterms.. and I have to work... so I won't get to until late this week. Urg. I don't want to stop climbing. SILLY INJURIES!
hey meg... i don't want to stop climbing either, but my friend is a physical therapist, and she told me to stay off it for awhile (how could she say that to me??? :( ) She said the big thing is to not let it get worse but to let it heal completely... if you push it too much it could turn into a really big problem... i still climb, but i stretch my shoulder and arm before and after, and if it starts to hurt even a little, i stop right away... i feel like i can't push myself as much as i want to, but i'd rather lay low for a little while than have a more serious and permanent injury...
-brad
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aimeerose
May 1, 2003, 1:13 AM
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First we need to figure out what you mean by the "back of your elbow". If you stand with your hands at your sides and your palms facing forward, is it the palm side of your elbow or the back of your hand side? Very important difference. Medial epicondylits is on the palm side. The back side could be something else.
Second, there is no such thing as anterior epicondylitis. There are only medial and lateral epicondyles on your humerus. No anterior epicondyle.
Third, renobdarb, you do not have tennis elbow. It sounds like you have biceps tendonitis (of the distal part of your biceps tendon). You might need to take some time off, ice, take ibu and figure out why on earth you're pulling so hard with your biceps, (think weakness elsewhere, possilby rotator cuff, lats, rhomboids). The only real way to tell is to have a physical therapist do some muscle tests and find out though.
Good luck to all y'all.
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beercanclimber
May 1, 2003, 1:56 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The pain is DEFINITELY on the inside... what is "golfer's elbow?" Goodness, I want it to STOP HURTING! I can't even turn doorknobs left-handed. .
ya think? very perceptive
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roseraie
May 1, 2003, 4:51 PM
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When I stood as described, the pain was on the back and inside of the elbow.
It doesn't hurt anymore, but I am still taking time off climbing to allow it to heal completely. I plan to try to climb again next week sometime, and if it hurts again, I'll make an appointment with a physical therapist. (I'm already looking for some, does anyone know of one who knows climbers in the San Diego area?)
Thanks for all the advice everyone.
Meg
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aimeerose
May 4, 2003, 11:02 PM
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Wow. That is interesting and probably not tennis or golfer's elbow (lateral or medial epicondylitis). It could be the attachment of your triceps. Sorry I don't know any PTs in San Diego, but I hope you find someone good. Again, if they don't seem to be helping after a few visits, find someone else. And if you do go see someone, let me know what they say. Good luck.
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crag
May 6, 2003, 3:57 PM
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Getting rid of tennis/golfers elbow.
You wont, unless you specifically set aside some time to work the opposing muscle groups which means, usually, doing something different. Whether its working with free weights or a different sporting activity you'll most likely continue to have a problem. Also, climbing in a gym can be unusually stressful to your tendons especially if you're going at it 2-3 times/week.
Since you're just starting out you need to give your muscles and tendons
time to adjust to this new and wonderful, activity. Slow down a little or
maybe a lot since you're already experiencing pain. Tendons are slow to
heal because of the very little blood flow they receive, take time off if
you're experiencing some serious pain. If you're climbing to exhaustion
every time you go to the gym you're probably not giving your body enough time to recoup.
As far as what balancing exercises to do I use free weights, reverse wrist
curls with light weight - high reps and triceps curls with medium weight.
Attach a piece of cord to a dowel rod and some free weights at the other end of the cord. Stand with your arms straight out in front of you with palms down and wind up the dowel rod lifting the weights all the way to your hands and then wind down, a killer exercise in my opinion. I also do hammer curls and shoulder rolls with medium to high weight. (Oh yea I'm such an ironpumping beef cake)
Finally, if you truly have an injury light exercise should be part of your
rehab but usually done away from climbing. Exercise increases blood flow
which in the case of an injured muscle or tendon help facilitate healing by
flushing away damaged tissue and such.
Oh yea and the most important part of any climbing exercise regime.....BEER!
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aimeerose
May 6, 2003, 8:03 PM
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wow, such a long post when it doesn't even pertain to the problem.
Posterior pain is not typically golfer's/tennis elbow.
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redders
May 24, 2003, 2:32 PM
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If we wanna do light climbing with this injury, is there any way to tape the elbow or rather, what should be the correct way to tape the elbow to protect it? :?
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redpoint73
May 24, 2003, 2:54 PM
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This is an old thread, but it seems to have returned. Anyway, I have some questions:
aimeerose, can you help me here? Its been a while since I learned any anatomy, but isn't anatomical position dictate that your arms hang down, with palms facing forward? This would change your descriptions of anterior/posterior and medial/laterial. Please correct me.
When he says "back of the elbow", I think he means right above the radial cap, so perhaps he is talking about tricep tendonitis -- which makes more sense in terms of climbing. In my first reply, I missed the part where he said "above the elbow". I though he meant below the elbow. If that is the case, antagonistic muscle weakness ( bicep) coud be the cause. If true, preacher curls (after the pain dispels/heals) would help.
redders, for tennis elbow I have seen people wrap tape or a specialized velcro strap around their forearm, right below the elbow. Healing and prevention are more important. But the tape/strap seems to help some people.
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jakedatc
May 25, 2003, 2:02 AM
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LOL thank you amieerose for correcting him before i had a chance to.. anterior epicondyle hehe exactly where would that be? hehe
from how she hurt it and where it the pain is i'm gunna say she pulled a tricep since she can extend her arm and she hurt it doing a mantle which uses alot of tricep and just over did it
i love the comments on here from people that "think they know" what injuries are and how to treat them with no training in the field
RICE till close to pain free, lightly stretch, slooowly begin to strenthen with small weights and gradually move back into climbing..
Jake
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ffaallliinngg
May 25, 2003, 2:27 AM
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This is definitely not tennis elbow. By the location, I would think triceps tendinitis, but that should hurt more with straightening the elbow and less with bending it. I would therefore guess you have a bursitis. A bursa is an outpouching of the joint capsule that extends away from the joint itself, which can become inflamed, typically due to overuse. There is a bursa in the olecranon fossa of the humerus, which is the hollow space in the upper back of the elbow that you can feel best with the arm bent. Treatment, unfortunately, is rest, ice, rest, anti-inflammatories, rest, and more rest.
ffaallliinngg, M.D.
P.S. for more info do a google search on "olecranon bursitis." Plenty of stuff.
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singin_rocker
Feb 12, 2005, 11:12 AM
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I have to admit I am a pretty new climber, but I seem to be experiencing the same pain described by some here.
If I stand palms forward the pain seems to be concentrated just above (shoulder side) of my elbow, on back, slightly inside (body side). It happens after climbing something that requires a lot of arm work of course, usually the ceiling in the gym. After doing that kind of activity, I can stop and it seems to get worse and worse. The other day I climbed and had this happen. I had to stop altogether. A friend told me she thougth it was lactic acid so I thought, no biggy, just pain (that was stupid of me). So last night I showed someone the climbing holds I have on my ceiling. I only pulled myself up and turned around. About 5 miutes later I was wanting to scream. Both arms were killing me in my elbows, but the pain was pretty hard to pinpoint being so intense. It was in my shoulders as well and my left bicep began to cramp. I took some ibu, iced the bicep, moaned and vowed to rest myself for a good while.
Y'all are going to think I'm some kind of moron, but I also use my computer (notebook) quite a lot for recording and web publishing. I do have tightness in my forearms due to that but I do my best to keep a close eye on that and not push it to hard.
Let the rain of "should have's" and "should not have's" begin.
take care
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naw
Feb 12, 2005, 8:46 PM
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singing_rocker,
If your pain is radiating through the shoulder and biceps and it's occuring in the location I believe you're describing, you should be very careful how much you push it. I had similar problems for awhile, took ibu and kept pushing it, and ended up with a swollen ulnar nerve in my elbow. Apparently I had some form of tendonitis (not sure exactly which, I'm in the military and the physical therapists don't really care about correctly diagnosing injuries) which exacerbated the nerve in my elbow, which was causing the radiating pain through my arm. The first time it happened, I took a few weeks off and started climbing more with my feet and less with my arms and it went away. About six months later, when I decided I wanted to start working on juggy, overhanging stuff, the pain came back. Coincidentally, the pain came on when I was over-working my elbows/arms and not giving them time to heal properly from this new type of stress. Eventually, I woke up in the middle of the night, and my elbow was killing me. The next morning, I had a tingling sensation in my pinky that wouldn't go away (like I'd hit my funny bone). My ulnar nerve was either swollen, compressed, or some combination of both. That was almost three months ago, and it's still tingling slightly. I can climb technical, balance climbs without bothering it. However, I still can't work on anything that requires a lot of pulling with my arms without the tingling coming back worse afterwards. I'm looking at probably a 6 month full recovery time, and for all I know the tingling may stick around for the rest of my life. I see that pain in that area (above the elbow, inside, around the area where the biceps connects to the elbow) is pretty common here in the forums and I think a lot of people are misdiagnosing it as simple tendonitis. I would suggest that you take at least 1-2 weeks off, take 800 MG ibu 3x daily, strengthen your antagonist muscles, and start working on more overhanging routes/problems gradually....don't just start climbing roofs for hours every day and expect your body to be able to adapt that quickly. I've had quite a few overuse injuries...first in distance running, and now in climbing; the one lesson I've learned is that if you take everything gradually and give your body time to adjust to whatever you're doing, you run a much lesser risk of injuring yourself. Be careful pushing that elbow. On a side note, I'm not a physical therapist...I'm just a guy who's done a lot of research on the physiological aspects of quite a few different injuries. Safe climbing.
nate
P.S. Be careful how you're sleeping...sleeping with your arms bent or underneath you can actually make the problem much worse. I had to wear a brace on my elbow that kept it straight for about 3 weeks before I trained myself to sleep without bending my elbow.
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prest_one
Feb 13, 2005, 11:15 PM
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Hehe were climbers, never call it tennis elbow. Its climbers elbow.
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prest_one
Feb 13, 2005, 11:15 PM
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Hehe were climbers, never call it tennis elbow. Its climbers elbow.
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