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merlin
Apr 30, 2003, 12:20 AM
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I have to agree with anne... it is a tragic event, and you have to feel sorry for both the families, and the soldiers... this wont do them any good. But i think one of the most worrying aspects of it, is what it will do to america's image in Iraq. i mean, this is one of the biggest incidents yet.... and it wont do their public image any good, people wont be in a good mood, WHATEVER the truth is (no arguments about that from me) i think that iraq people are likely to believe their peers... the other iraqi's who are saying they were not armed
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sushislayer
Apr 30, 2003, 12:37 AM
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In reply to: ...they will not let our contry be taken over by tyrants
And, some would argue that Bush Jr., et al. have done just that.
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jono13
Apr 30, 2003, 2:14 AM
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Micronut I like your style. Bush, plah. Last night I watched "Talking to Americans", and at one point they interviewed bush telling how canadian leader "Jean Poutine" was all for Bush leading the world into free trade :lol: Bush replied with (and this is real, no jokes) "Well I think very highly of Mr.Poutine and I look forward to seeing him in the future." :lol: What a bright man he is, I mean, I know I would LOVE to have him leading a country hated by about every other country in the world.
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dondiego
Apr 30, 2003, 2:41 AM
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Yeah, I guess I sort of have a pretty good perspective on what's going on here and if you ask anyone on this site that knows me, intimidation is not in my vocabulary and I encourage people to say what they feel and believe until they get stupid so keep up the wrong assumptions. As to when the last time was that we were invaded, we were attacked not all that long ago if you have forgotten and if you wonder why we haven't been invaded it's because there are people who stand up and say that it's not going to happen on their watch. We are the most feared military in the world and that is why we are still a soverign state. It was a tragedy, but so is every death. It would be a greater tragedy to set a precedent that our guys here can get shot at and attacked without being able to fight back. I guess until you are in a place where you truly are in fear for your life, you can't understand.
DD
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extrememountaineer
Apr 30, 2003, 3:22 AM
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How come so many of you liberals are so eager to believe anybody but our own troops? I would tend to believe the story of our troops. What exactly would they have to gain by just mowing down 'peaceful' demonstrators? I don't think our government is perfect.I don't think Bush is perfect. But, for crying out loud, would you crybabies just shut up and show a little love for the USA once in a while? You always pointy out how everything sucks and then people like me tell you to leave and then you say you love your country and just want to make it better. Great, let's hear some freakin' solutions from you bleading hearts! You are real good at pointing out how disgusted you are with everything but you never have any solutions that are proven to work! I know, I know, put our loving arms around the people that have sworn to kill all Americans and show them a little love and then there will be peace on earth...I feel sorry for you guys.
Sleep well...
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extrememountaineer
Apr 30, 2003, 3:25 AM
Post #32 of 52
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P.S.
Has there ever been a war that was just to you socialists?
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styndall
Apr 30, 2003, 3:43 AM
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In reply to: P.S. Has there ever been a war that was just to you socialists?
First off, fuck you.
Second, yes. There have been a number of wars that I think were a great idea to take part in. The recent action in Bosnia, for instance. Gulf war part 1.
Note that in both those instances, there was a broad coalition of international forces who all recognized the need for action. This recent one had no such thing (Bush's "coalition of the willing" was bullshit. Micronesia's contribution to the war effort? something like a buck forty in change and half a twinkie).
When will you abortion-doctor-murdering, oklahoma-city-bombing right wing f*cks get the message that bullshit stereotyping just pisses people off?
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climbinganne
Apr 30, 2003, 4:11 AM
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In reply to: First off, f___ you. Second, yes. There have been a number of wars that I think were a great idea to take part in. The recent action in Bosnia, for instance. Gulf war part 1. Note that in both those instances, there was a broad coalition of international forces who all recognized the need for action. This recent one had no such thing (Bush's "coalition of the willing" was s___. Micronesia's contribution to the war effort? something like a buck forty in change and half a twinkie). When will you abortion-doctor-murdering, oklahoma-city-bombing right wing f*cks get the message that s___ stereotyping just pisses people off?
**needs to chill**
or practice what thy preaches...
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styndall
Apr 30, 2003, 4:24 AM
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In reply to: **needs to chill** or practice what thy preaches...
The irony was intentional.
And I know it's vitriolic. Sometimes it's good to fight.
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caughtinside
Apr 30, 2003, 6:16 AM
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I think it's important to remember what was going on when this tragedy happened. There was a crowd/mob of protesters. I think it's fair to assume that the troops involved were extremely nervous, and concerned for their safety.
Has anyone forgotten the 1000 suicide bombers that a militant Palistinian group sent to Iraq with the express purpose of killing americans? Knowing that, I'd be reluctant to let anyone waving a white flag near me.
Also, everyone wants the troops to come home, as soon as possible. But we can't just pack up and leave tomorrow. What would we leave behind besides total chaos and perhaps bloodshed? That's what we've been accused of doing after we stopped supporting the mujahideen in Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled out, and we all know where that got us.
And personally, I don't believe America is hated by every country on earth.
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overlord
Apr 30, 2003, 7:39 AM
Post #37 of 52
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1. what are american soldiers doing in iraq in the first place??? invading a sovereign country whose regime the US supported at first (even providing "weapons of mass destruction"), but when they dont like sadam any more because he wont give you oil for free, you gonna kill him.
2. there wouldnt be any palestinian suicidal bombers in existence if Us wouldn fout Israel on palestinian territory. why didnt you found israels somewhere in US???
3. maybe suicidal bombers are the only way some arab nations can defend themselves (palestinians dont have a country, henceforth they cant have a regular army).
4. so how do you suppose palestinians could help their oppressed brethren in iraq?? by suicidal bombingns of american soldiers who shouldnt even be there.
lets face it, bush administrationt f**ked up big time
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bumblie
Apr 30, 2003, 3:27 PM
Post #38 of 52
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Overlord,
Obviously, you have a poor grasp of the English language. Please improve your understanding of English before posting again.
Thank you.
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andy_lemon
Apr 30, 2003, 3:37 PM
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In reply to: while many protestors threw stones that were taken for grenades by AMerican soldiers. The soldiers responded with heavy machine guns.
Just proves a point... never bring a stone to a gun fight.
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micronut
Apr 30, 2003, 3:48 PM
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I find it very interesting that those who are in favor of war, death, killing, murder, and evil, try to dismiss those who act out of consciousness, heart, virtue, and truth as "liberals", followed by the usual immature insults. Their emotionality doesn't lend any credibility to their position; in fact it's indicitive of the flimsyness of thier arguments.
This world situation has presented us (humanity) with a great opportunity to choose between "good" and "evil". The contrast has seldom been so apparent. Those who would defend evil are fighting a losing battle, as according to spritual law, evil causes write their own death warrant. This is not about narrow political affiliation, it's about a greater struggle between those who are opening up their hearts and those who prefer to remain irratated, ignorant, and dark. Devoid of love in their own hearts, therfore incapable of seeing and feeling it without. "If we meet no Gods, it's because we harbor none."
Also, I appoligize to Elvislegs for my assumptive statement.
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andy_lemon
Apr 30, 2003, 3:50 PM
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In reply to: This world situation has presented us (humanity) with a great opportunity to choose between "good" and "evil".
In this day and age there is no "who is good or evil?", there is only a "who is in charge?"
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serra_da_leba
Apr 30, 2003, 3:56 PM
Post #42 of 52
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overlorod seems to have a poor grasp on history too.
Even if you were to take the general delcaration that the US and the US alone "founded" the state of Israel for face value, it still doesn't hold true. The establishment of the state Israel was done though UN consensus. Moreover, the US wasn't event the first country to diplomatically recognize the state of Israel. The Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia were there before the US. Furthermore, they immdediately started shipping arms to Israel in its military efforts during the first Arab-Israeli war.
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bumblie
Apr 30, 2003, 4:43 PM
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[quote="micronut"]I find it very interesting that those who are in favor of war, death, killing, murder, and evil, try to dismiss those who act out of consciousness, heart, virtue, and truth as "liberals", followed by the usual immature insults. Their emotionality doesn't lend any credibility to their position; in fact it's indicitive of the flimsyness of thier arguments.
In reply to: What tint do you have on your glasses? Whatever shade, it's quite strong. Nice grouping in that first sentence. "in favor of war" (implying this war)... "and evil". Ergo, if you are in favor of this war, then you are in favor of evil. Nice touch.
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alvchen
Apr 30, 2003, 4:48 PM
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Since I've received some military training, here's a different view:
I believe there are a lot of scared young troops out there that are reacting based on instincts; in this case, to shoot back once fired upon, instead of going off of what they've been trained to do.
When in contact with enemy fire, they're first to drop and find cover, not to shoot back.
Since civilians were involved, flash grenades would have easily dispersed them.
It's scary being out there. Their actions are "understandable," but cannot be tolerated.
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hugepedro
Apr 30, 2003, 5:00 PM
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Posts: 2875
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Well, I guess I'm one of those "liberal crybabies", if we're resorting to disparaging generalizations here.
I spoke out against the war on this site, more so the policies of the Bush Administration. I've also said that I support the troops. Although I think much of what has been written in this thread is rather ridiculous, it does offer the opportunity for me to express my support for the troops.
I've seen the question raised various times, "how can one be against this war yet support the troops?" I've often wrestled with the seeming contradiction of my position. The sentiments I'm about to express represent how I've reconciled this in my mind, and it is the best I can do.
I think this event was a tragedy, but I accept that this is the sort of thing that happens during war (and during occupation when some of the people don't want to be occupied). War is not civil. When our soldiers are at war I don't hold them to a standard of normal civility. Soldiers have to make life and death decisions in an instant. They don't have the luxury of reflection and careful consideration. Sometimes, under the intense pressure and urgency of war, the decisions they make will be wrong. Sometimes they will do things that seem like attrocities to those of us sitting at home, but even what seems attrocious may be the best or only course of action for them at that moment. Sometimes, upon reflection, a better decision could have been made, but the decision that was made was the best that could be expected at that time. Most of the time, what we see in the media is not the full story.
I believe our soldiers are doing the best anyone can do in the situation in which they've been placed. Until there is a Court Marshall or war crimes trial that convicts our soldiers, they have my full support and the benefit of the doubt. In my view, the harming of innocents in this case is on the hands of those who created the situation, Saddam Hussein, and yes, the Bush Administration.
When I meet a soldier I will shake their hand and thank them unconditionally. When they come home, if there is a parade for them, I will go and cheer them.
Are my sentiments enough that a soldier would considered them to be "supportive"? I don't know. But it is the best I can do while exercising what I believe to be my responsibility as a citizen.
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micronut
Apr 30, 2003, 5:07 PM
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alvchen, good point, and in no way am I saying these U.S. soliders are murder-crazed baby killers. These are kids out there, really, and they are in a very ugly, dangereous situation; seeing and doing things that no human should have to see and do. They need to be brought home now, not trying to police a land and culture that is not their own, trying to figure out who's going to bomb them and who's going for milk. The psycological dmage being incured by OUR young people is going to take generations to heal. It's absolute horror, no way around it.
Bumblie:In reply to: "in favor of war" (implying this war)... then you are in favor of evil.
Yes, .......if you were to see the piles of dead bodies for ONE SECOND, I think you might re-assess your position slightly.
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andy_lemon
Apr 30, 2003, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: Well, I guess I'm one of those "liberal crybabies", if we're resorting to disparaging generalizations here.
Yes hugepedro, this is what some of us do best here at rc.com... we like to put everyone in their category, dispensing them like food stamps.
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bumblie
Apr 30, 2003, 5:38 PM
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Micronut,
Which do you consider worse?
Saddam's rule - On average, 4000 people were killed each week for the last 30 years.
US War in Iraq - Total deathtoll around 5000.
Many people tend to focus on the deaths from this war, while ignoring the fact that these deaths are merely a drop in the bucket compared to the everyday killings under Saddam's rule.
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howitzer
Apr 30, 2003, 5:56 PM
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hugepedro - very well put my friend, very well put. I agree with you wholeheartedly, as someone very close to me is over there and I struggle with my own contradictory feelings over this conflict every second of every day. And micronut, you are quite right about what is being done to the mental state of the very young men over there right now. I can only imagine the counciling and hard times that my fiancee will have to go through to understand and accept the things he has seen and done since he has been fighting over there.
It's very easy for folks here to be the idealistic thinkers and view the scenario from the luxury of a computer monitor. You can 'iffa, couldda, wouldda, shouldda all day long. If we were over there making these split second decisions it would be a much different tune to sing. ;)
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curt
Apr 30, 2003, 6:33 PM
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A few comments here. Hugepedro's post above is right on the money. Also, for folks like micronut, I am not "pro-war" no matter how many times you say it--merely because I think military intervention is sometimes necessary to correct serious and intractable international problems.
The killing of these Iraqi protestors was a terrible event, but everyone is on a "learning curve" in that country at present. Protestor doing the same thing under the Saddam regime would have certainly been shot--so, in a way things are currently no worse. And, unlike under a Saddam regime--they are now likely to get better over time.
I have posted before that the hard part of this action is now. Winning the military victory over Iraq was a forgone conclusion before the first shot was fired. Forming a lasting democratic government in Iraq is infinitely harder and will take substantial time. We shouldn't expect instant gratification or results.
Curt
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