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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: Some of you guys are pretty week. If you steal any draws off my project or anyone elses I'll beat you down. QD's are expensive. People don't generally abandon them. If I'm just camping up the road and I'm going to be working on the same route tomorrow, why not leave a couple of draws on. Go ahead and climb on them. But don't steal them. 8) 8)
Bring on the beating.........
I'll do what I please, especially to a bunch of irresponsible, unaccountable, cliff closure behavior inclined Sport Feygs.....
Swing that limp wrist and try to take your best shot!
:wink:
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victorblanco
May 2, 2003, 5:31 PM
Post #27 of 177
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Unbelievable. No wonder we have trouble as a user group. "F sport climbers". Smart, really smart. I guess if you climb trad you have better judgement and ethics.
I don't see how a campsite overseen by BLM or a crag overseen by BLM are any different and how one can be deemed more personal than the other.
Hey I'm the first to admit stolen draws are not the end of the world, but, I still want them back. Do you like to have your money stolen or pissed on?
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timstich
May 2, 2003, 5:36 PM
Post #28 of 177
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It seems to me that a reasonable compromise between bootying the gear and leaving the draws in situ if you want them to be off the route while YOU climb it is to clean them and put them in a pile at the base of the route. This of course leaves them open to theft from people who were unable or unwilling to clean them off of the wall. But reducing that theft risk is not necessarily anyone's concern other than the owner of the draws.
-Tim Stich
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mwoody
May 2, 2003, 5:41 PM
Post #29 of 177
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I wouldnt call it booty it was in the middle of the day....I saw him walk of with your draws. I was about to say something but i assumed he was just looking for the owner. anyway I found a pair of oaklys up there that day if anyone lost a pair.
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salami
May 2, 2003, 5:43 PM
Post #30 of 177
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one thing remains, You do not have your gear cause you lazily did not clean it. evidently it was easy to remove the draws because someone did. Oh yeah about bad gear, if you are into using unknown gear i have a biner that was dropped from 100+ ft and made that wonderful ping we all like to hear, it looks fine but i would never trust my life with it. I will leave it for you on my next project route. If you trust unknown gear then you are more of an idiot than a person leaving gear and thinking it will be there when they get back around to it. Oh now you are going to rant about "you trust bolts don't you, and you don't know what they have been through". my answer is if I could rebolt every route before I climbed it I would, sadly that is impractical, I trust bolts because i have to, not because I want to. One thing I don't have to trust is gear left behind.
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 5:45 PM
Post #31 of 177
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In reply to: Unbelievable. No wonder we have trouble as a user group. "F sport climbers". Smart, really smart. I guess if you climb trad you have better judgement and ethics. I don't see how a campsite overseen by BLM or a crag overseen by BLM are any different and how one can be deemed more personal than the other. Hey I'm the first to admit stolen draws are not the end of the world, but, I still want them back. Do you like to have your money stolen or pissed on?
Maybe you can't see the difference because of a lack of education or knowledge.
There is a difference. A large one. Look up the legal definitions of Personal Property VS. Real Property. Just becuase you are ignorant of the law does not preclude you from it.
Leaving draws on a route is offensive. It is the equivalent of a dog peeing on a hydrant or the US leaving a Flag on the moon.
Rap off, clean up your F*cking m,ess, or I'll do it for you....
And yes F Sport climbers...you pricks do more to create access problems that any other land users. In the immortal words of Mel Allen: "You could look it up."
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bigo
May 2, 2003, 5:46 PM
Post #32 of 177
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A single draw or biner left on a route is booty. An entire route of draws minus the bottom on or two are project draws. Anyone who takes project draws is a thief - bottom line.
Don't be an a##hole, leave peoples draws alone.
Orion
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jt512
May 2, 2003, 5:49 PM
Post #33 of 177
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In reply to: It seems to me that a reasonable compromise between bootying the gear and leaving the draws in situ if you want them to be off the route while YOU climb it is to clean them and put them in a pile at the base of the route
No, that is not a reasonable compromise. And this business about not wanting to climb on someone else's draws is totally hypothetical, and is just being spewed by ignorant teenage thieves as an excuse to steal a set of draws. If the route was hard enough that draws are being left on it overnight, then anyone who wants to do the route will be damn glad that someone else put draws on it and will be more than happy to climb on them.
-Jay
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 5:51 PM
Post #34 of 177
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Wrong....
taking them without returning them is called "confiscation."
Taking them and returning them is another story entirely.
Why are you putting the rights of the first climber ahead of the rights of all other users? Ahhhhhh, because you are a climber that is selfish, that's why!
You wanna call people a thief? Fine....But you are the scourge of all climbers everywhere, because it is your attitude, actions, and behaviors, that put cliff access in jeopardy. But what do you care? As long as you get to "send" it's all good, right?
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bigo
May 2, 2003, 5:57 PM
Post #35 of 177
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In reply to: Why are you putting the rights of the first climber ahead of the rights of all other users? Ahhhhhh, because you are a climber that is selfish, that's why!
Is it really that important to hang your own draws on a hard sport route? Do you even climb sport routes? I may be selfish, but you seem to be a jerk.
Orion
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cloudbreak
May 2, 2003, 5:57 PM
Post #36 of 177
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Registered: Jul 15, 2002
Posts: 917
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drkodos = male reproductive organ with a bad attitude
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 5:59 PM
Post #37 of 177
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Registered: Dec 21, 2002
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Thank you for noticing....
at least I'm not flaccid like most of you Viagra needy spew meisters...
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jhwnewengland
May 2, 2003, 6:00 PM
Post #38 of 177
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Anyone saying that the draws are booty, or claiming that they wouldn't climb on them, clearly does not have any experience at a true sport climbing area and should not be making claims like that.
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 6:00 PM
Post #39 of 177
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It's not about hanging ones draws...
it's a larger issue, but I guess I can't expect people with their heads up the rectums to be able to see the big picture....
Climbing ethics are just that...ETHICS FOR CLIMBERS...
Is it possible that someone other than climbers took the draws? Is it possible that someone is just making a statement for other reasons?
Climbing Ethics do not always (and rarely) synch-up with other outdoor ethics, wilderness, or land ownership issues and ethics. Only self-serving climbers feel the need to rape others with their set of "SELF IMPOSED ETHICS."
Like sending 5.14 really means anything worthwhile to humanity....give me a break...stop pretending that you are accomplishing something meaningful. It's f*cking climbing. A selfish pursuit with no positive repurcussions for anyone outside the sport.
Grow up, divorce yourself from that Peter Pan mentality you are stuck with, and join the ranks of the rest of humanity.
Until then, F you....
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jt512
May 2, 2003, 6:05 PM
Post #40 of 177
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In reply to: Wrong.... taking them without returning them is called "confiscation."
Wrong. "Confiscation" is the seizure of property by an authority, and that ain't you, drkodos.
In reply to: Taking them and returning them is another story entirely.
Again, taking them and returning them is hypothetical. The route in question is 5.13a. Anyone climbing at that level (and that isn't you either, drkodos) will be more than happy to have the draws already up.
In reply to: Why are you putting the rights of the first climber ahead of the rights of all other users? Ahhhhhh, because you are a climber that is selfish, that's why!
What other users? The only other users will be 5.13 climbers, and they don't want to put the draws up.
In reply to: You wanna call people a thief? Fine....But you are the scourge of all climbers everywhere, because it is your attitude, actions, and behaviors, that put cliff access in jeopardy. But what do you care? As long as you get to "send" it's all good, right?
Please cite a single example of a sport crag where access has been put in jeopardy because someone left their draws up overnight on a hard route.
-Jay
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 6:06 PM
Post #41 of 177
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Sorry to inform you, but yes, I am an authority. Both on public lands and on the private land that own......
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 6:08 PM
Post #42 of 177
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Hemlock...closed by Private Land Owners because they were upset at looking at all the draws that were left.
There are many others.
To many landowners, draws are a "flag", a symbol of a climbers arrogance to the land. Like Ripley's believe it or not, it doesn't matter whether you beleive or not. It is a fact.
As for other uses.....the narrowness of you vision is staggering. Other people besides climbers visit Shelf Road....maybe they'd enjoy seeing the rock in a more natural setting, rather than adorned with a bunch of colored ribbons and metals.....
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bigo
May 2, 2003, 6:08 PM
Post #43 of 177
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Posts: 237
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Dr.
Blaming spurt climbers on access issues is ignorant and stupid. The majority of non climbers don't see bolts or even realize they are there at all. The thing that pisses non climbers off is errosion, tresspassing and general traffic. These things are easy to associate with sport climbing because the majority of climbers sport climb, but it doesn't mean that only sport climbers are capable of this - Indian Creek. Maybe you're just pissed more people climb. Would you really like it if everyone quit sport climbing and started climbing for real with you? I'm sure everything would be better.
Orion
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salami
May 2, 2003, 6:10 PM
Post #44 of 177
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Posts: 128
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ok listen up all of you non believers, if there is fixed gear like quicklink draws on roofs then I climb to them clip into them have my belay person take and then promptly put my own gear in. here is the shocker. when i am done working the route to get my gear back i climb it on top rope and remove the draws. I know this is a new concept for some of you, you know removing gear an all.
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bigo
May 2, 2003, 6:12 PM
Post #45 of 177
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Posts: 237
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I do love to climb roofs on top rope :roll:
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 6:13 PM
Post #46 of 177
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Orion,
I will be honest.
I am pissed that more people climb.
It's one of the main causes of Access issues.
But's it not the numbers, it the attitude they bring with them.
I am also pissed that climbers on MY PRIVATE LAND have caused me thousands of dollars of legal fees. I don't expect you to care. It's a long and interesting story, but most people don't have time for the facts, only their own needs and desires.
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salami
May 2, 2003, 6:14 PM
Post #47 of 177
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Posts: 128
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jt512 please step off your high horse before you hurt yourself. you are spouting as many or more hypothetical situations as the rest of us.
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jt512
May 2, 2003, 6:24 PM
Post #48 of 177
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In reply to: jt512 please step off your high horse before you hurt yourself. you are spouting as many or more hypothetical situations as the rest of us.
Bullsh*t, Poser. Quote a single statment that I made that is hypothetical.
-Jay
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rob
May 2, 2003, 6:30 PM
Post #49 of 177
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Registered: Feb 18, 2003
Posts: 37
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My dad can pee further than all of you.
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jt512
May 2, 2003, 6:30 PM
Post #50 of 177
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In reply to: Hemlock...closed by Private Land Owners because they were upset at looking at all the draws that were left.
OK. Fair enough. Don't leave draws up where it is an irritant to landowners or other recreational users. However, there are many sport crags where this is not an issue (I can't speak for Shelf Road). Areas I frequent are either rarely visited by non-climbers or are visited mainly by other far more destructive users, such as off-roaders.
-Jay
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