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wallabe
May 2, 2003, 6:44 PM
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All I have to say is that as of late the climbing community has been hasn't been getting the best publicity..... so we need to stick together and not steal other peoples shit....how would u like it if ur qd's were stolen???
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bandycoot
May 2, 2003, 6:45 PM
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How do you know whether or not it will be an issue until draws are left, someone complains and access issues are begun? Why not just strip them in the first place and prevent it from ever becoming an issue? Sounds like it was easy to strip them from the anchor, that means they would be easy to place via that same anchor. This can't take more than 15 minutes for a competent climber and if they are climbing 13a they should be competent by then! The individual was lazy and didn't clean up after themself. I have no pity. It's too bad that it happened, but it did. I personally think that if there is something that could possibly result in access issues DON'T DO IT! Why find out because then it is too late? It's like the Greenhouse gas problem... We don't know what will happen, does that mean it's OK and we should pollute? NO.
Josh
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salami
May 2, 2003, 6:56 PM
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jt512
Quote "Again, taking them and returning them is hypothetical. The route in question is 5.13a. Anyone climbing at that level (and that isn't you either, drkodos) will be more than happy to have the draws already up. "
Quote "What other users? The only other users will be 5.13 climbers, and they don't want to put the draws up."
there is example 1 and example 2.
I guess you are blinded by your own ignorance, maybe you need to get different glasses.
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jhwnewengland
May 2, 2003, 6:56 PM
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Maybe it's not cool to leave draws up overnight, but it's even less cool for someone to presume it's his duty to remove them. Taking draws that were clearly left there on purpose is wrong. Any ethical person would consider that theft, unless a serious effort was made to return them to the owner and a good reason given for removing them. Yes I'm talking hypothetical cases, but that's the only way to discuss ethical issues, right?
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jhwnewengland
May 2, 2003, 6:58 PM
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Basically what I'm saying is: if you are an honest person you know how to distinguish between booty and someone else's property. And you don't take someone else's property.
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bigo
May 2, 2003, 7:14 PM
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In my experience, seeing draws left on a hard climb that I (or anyone else I know) would like to climb is a good thing - it may even motivate me to try a climb I wasn't planning on getting on. I think most people who are climbing hard routes will agree.
Now here is the disclaimer - this type of practice/mentality is only valid at sport crags where it is the norm. At Smith, where I climb - don't steal project draws; you will be a thief. If you are at a crag with no project draws in sight, maybe you should think twice before you leave your draws.
It basically comes down to respect. Respect the crags ethics and respect peoples sh$t. Come on people, it's not that hard - and you'll feel good after.
Orion
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climbsomething
May 2, 2003, 7:21 PM
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Not long ago, I was an ignorant beginner. I thought draws dangling everywhere were fair game for being unattended.
Now, I feel differently, but I still wouldn't leave draws hanging overnight. But not because I think they are fair booty or because people who leave them on projects are lazy selfish send whores. It's because I don't trust the assholes who still roam about thinking it's okay to make off with somebody's gear, no matter what greater sport climbing 'culture' deems. Vance learned this the hard way, which sucks.
Seems people on the other side of the issue are pretty tough to reason with, but I'll try anyway: there are certain protocol in sport climbing. It is entirely acceptable to leave gear on a projected route. Taking draws off a projected route shows either ignorance or blatant disregard for what is accepted in sport climbing, and either way, that's "not so good." Educate yourself just a little about what is acceptable within the sport climbing community, and if you can't or won't do that, then stay away from it completely. We won't miss you, and I doubt you gave a shit about us in the first place either.
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climbsomething
May 2, 2003, 7:28 PM
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...and of course, there's that whole issue of personal ethics, trad/sport'ness aside:
In reply to: Basically what I'm saying is: if you are an honest person you know how to distinguish between booty and someone else's property. And you don't take someone else's property.
Duh!
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bandycoot
May 2, 2003, 8:06 PM
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climbsomething; I think that what some of the opposition is trying to say is that while that may be fine according to "sport climbing culture" or whatever, it is not OK on the grand scale. Those draws should not be there unless necessary because some people think of them as an eyesore and this could cause access issues potentially. I don't think that the people who are arguing this would take the draws because they are thieves, more because they want the area to be clean of visual impact.
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mhr2000
May 2, 2003, 8:28 PM
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These posts sure help me learn. I can't imagine leaving $100 worth of draws just hanging there free for the taking. Draws are such small items and easy to conceal. I won't ever leave draws simply because any out of towner who doesn't frequent the area would have an interest in them. "Hey, let's snag the gear, we won't be back for years so who's going to catch us." There will always be that one ahole or group of aholes nearby waiting patiently for a golden opportunity. This goes for everthing, not just draws. Protect all your stuff or accept the risks and live with the consequences.
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 8:36 PM
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In reply to: At Smith, where I climb - don't steal project draws; you will be a thief. If you are at a crag with no project draws in sight, maybe you should think twice before you leave your draws. It basically comes down to respect. Respect the crags ethics and respect peoples sh$t. Come on people, it's not that hard - and you'll feel good after. Orion
Even at Smith, why should climbers dictate to the rest of the park community what the proper way to enjoy the rock should be?
Open your eyes, and expand your understanding of the world to include more than just climbing, and many access issues will melt away overnight.
The argument to "respect the crag's ethics" is still not quite acceptable. To certain degrees, yes, but with deference to larger issues regarding climbing....then no!
Because other morons have manufactured routes at Potosi & Charleston, that makes it ok? They are the crag ethics, but that activity is illegal and against the Wilderness Conservation policies at effect in those areas.
With regards to Smith, I do respect hanging draws. They look like sh*t and I question if the same idiot leaves fecal matter on his anus or if he wipes......but I don't steal them.
The lamest argument above was the one that said only climbers of the same ability used the draws, and since that wasn't me, I should basicaslly shut my pie-hole. Here is my illogical, flaming, ranting counter-point:
I haven't met a single 5.13 climber that was a decent human being. I'm not sure I'd want to be that way, even if I could be. They're all far too self involved to really care about anything other than their own acheivements. I've never aspired to be so self absorbed on a meaningless pursuit. Count me out of your mutant ranks, you dystopic, twisted, perverse, self-loving wankers...
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jt512
May 2, 2003, 8:46 PM
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In reply to: jt512 Quote "Again, taking them and returning them is hypothetical. The route in question is 5.13a. Anyone climbing at that level (and that isn't you either, drkodos) will be more than happy to have the draws already up. " Quote "What other users? The only other users will be 5.13 climbers, and they don't want to put the draws up." there is example 1 and example 2. I guess you are blinded by your own ignorance, maybe you need to get different glasses.
Salami, maybe you are blinded by a poor vocabulary. Neither of those statements are hypothetical.
-Jay
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cloudbreak
May 2, 2003, 8:49 PM
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Dr, you've got serious issues, Bro, stemming way deeper than land access and leaving draws on routes.......SERIOUSLY!!! Re-read your replies to this thread and contemplate for a second.
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hugepedro
May 2, 2003, 8:51 PM
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I don't climb at sport crags very often, however, I get the project draws thing (although I wouldn't leave my own, I think that's obviously asking for it). I also think that many of you are not as concerned as you ought to be about the potential impact on access that visual impact of climbers might cause. Drkodos cited a specific example of a closure, but his point on access has been mostly ignored here. Just because climbing is accepted at your local crag now doesn't mean that it will always be so. As more climbers join our ranks more people are going to notice us and be offended by the impact of our presence. We need to check our attitudes about our impact.
But I have an honest question. What if you left draws on your project with the intention of working it the next day, but when you returned somebody else was working it, using your draws? How do you handle that situation? What if they were working it the whole day, or even the next day too? Would you expect them to remove your gear? What if they could only climb past your first few draws, so cleaned them and gave them to you, but you still had more draws hanging above them? I expect this situation doesn't happen very often, if ever, but I'm just curious what the proper edicate is. Do draws on a project imply some sort of reservation?
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 8:51 PM
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Jay,
The issue is your monofocality on climbers.
A lot of people that use areas aren't climbers. They find draws hanging off the rock offensive. They write letters. They have more $$$ than most climbers.
Is this too difficult for you to expand your mind to understand? or are you the "I've made up my mind, don't bother me with the facts" kind-of-guy...?
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bigo
May 2, 2003, 9:00 PM
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In reply to: Even at Smith, why should climbers dictate to the rest of the park community what the proper way to enjoy the rock should be?
Smith is a unique place in this respect. The main climbing area is littered with routes and climbers. With draws hanging or not climbing will be highly visible. In fact, many non-climbers come to watch climbers as a spectacle. Also, Smith Rock is a large park and if a non-climber would like an experience away from the climbing hustle and bustle, it only takes a 10 min walk and you can view nesting eagles with know one else around.
The idea of looking at an area other than a climbing area is sound advice - I think most climbers need practice doing it. This relates to a whether or not a crag's ethics will fall in line with societies ethics. Chipping in a wilderness area certainly is a discrepancy between the two. This is a complicated issue that is certainly one of the most pressing in the climbing community.
However, trivial climbing related issues like bolting, how you bolt, leaving draws, is this a redpoint or a pinkpoint?... can be resolved with the most ease if everyone follows local crag ethics. If you happen to disagree with a set of local guidelines- tough sh$t. You don't like how draws look hanging at smith - go climb in the Menagerie. If I'm too scared to climb without bolts at the Gunks, I should sack it up or go to Rumney. I guess what I'm saying is everyone has different opinions about what is right - and it is in our best interests to allow those differences to exist.
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jt512
May 2, 2003, 9:00 PM
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Most of you who are saying words to the effect that you'd never leave draws on a route overnight are, I suspect, not experienced sport climbers. Perhaps you don't think you'd ever leave your draws up overnight because you've never worked a route that is difficult to put the draws up on. I have. I've had projects where after putting up the draws I didn't have the strength to redpoint the route. The draws would go up on Saturday, I'd take a second work run on the route, and the serious work/redpoint attempts would be on Sunday with the draws already up. So I think your saying that you would "never" do this is coming from inexperience.
-Jay
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 9:06 PM
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Jay,
I've put up roues where I had to leave pieces that cost a lot more than draws...
In 30 years of climbing, I've left my share of draws (wrongly so).
I've had sh*t stolen from the base of routes at the Trapps, and stuff stolen during first ascents at Red Rock. (even when notes were left).
This isn't the real issue.
I think Bigo's statement above is cogent, well reasoned, and correct. Climbing needs to coesist with the ethics of larger groups of people. People whose decisions and $$$ usually matter more than most of ours....
That being said...like Elvis, it's time for me to leave the building.
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bigo
May 2, 2003, 9:07 PM
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hugepedro-
Concernig your question, it happens quite often that project draws are climbed by other climbers. Most people leaving draws on a route understand this. It has happened to me from both ends and usually I end up having a pleasant climbing day with someone new.
Also, you can help deter people from getting on your draws that can't climb the entire route by cleaning off the first one or two. This is pretty common.
Orion
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jt512
May 2, 2003, 9:12 PM
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In reply to: Now, I feel differently, but I still wouldn't leave draws hanging overnight. But not because I think they are fair booty or because people who leave them on projects are lazy selfish send whores. It's because I don't trust the assholes who still roam about thinking it's okay to make off with somebody's gear, no matter what greater sport climbing 'culture' deems.
There is always a risk that the ignorant or dishonest will steal your draws, but some crags are safer than others. At Williamson, I have left draws on Hellraiser, a 12c with no easy access to the top, but would never leave them at one of the more popular walls. At New Jack, I left draws on Maynard G Krebs, an isolated 12a, but would not leave them on Raven Rock, a popular wall for beginners. At Frustration Creek, it is common to leave draws up for a whole season. The crag is accessible only via a 30-foot 5.8 free solo. Nonetheless, draws and fixed ropes have been stolen there. Given the difficulty of the approach and the routes, apparently the thieves were skilled climbers.
-Jay
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cabdog
May 2, 2003, 9:14 PM
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WOW WOW WOW WOW! I have never seen so much silly bickering! This thread alone truly represents the vast spectrums of climbers' personal ethics. "I'm cool because i sport climb.." "no, i'm cooler cause i trad climb" I like to climb to have fun. It seems that many people like to portray themselves as being the educated person and spray about their egos. If climbers are bickering over such silly issues then I can only imagine how access issues are gonna increase, in that we cannot hold together as a strong users' group. I climb shelf every weekend. Personally, i think these draws were stolen. I don't buy the 'eye-sore' stupid comments, and I would be happy to utilize someone's draws on some climbs. I even welcome it! What a bummer...if this is what climbing is coming to....maybe i'll pick up bowling.. :cry: :cry:
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jt512
May 2, 2003, 9:23 PM
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In reply to: Jay, ... I think Bigo's statement above is cogent, well reasoned, and correct.
I wasn't responding to bigo's statement, which was posted simultaneously with mine.
In reply to: Climbing needs to coesist with the ethics of larger groups of people.
I agree. I just think that the ethic of getting upset about draws being left up overnight is not a widely held one, so it is not unethical at most sport climbing areas to leave draws up. I'll take your word for it that this is an issue at some crags, but I have trouble believing that this is common; that is, that land owners would tolerate bolts, chain anchors, chalk, dogs, crowds, and screaming teenagers, and then close the crag because the draws were left up overnight.
-Jay
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brianinslc
May 2, 2003, 9:29 PM
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Whew, I hate to get some of this on me, but...FWIW...
My thoughts are, if you are climbing on public land, and you decide to leave gear, overnight, unattended, then its really abandoned property. Some folks will consider it unsightly and remove it. Some folks will see free booty, and take the draws. If you're going to abandon your gear, then its not stealing to take it.
Flipside is, if its common practise in an area to leave a bunch of draws, that are for "community use" and not just private, than most folks (me included) will repect it.
If I bootied your draw(s), and I knew they were yours, I'd return them. Pretty simple.
Its your risk and your stuff, so your responsibilty. You can't dictate, on public land, when you leave your gear on the rock, that someone is stealing from you. Its a risk you choose to make. And, really, its usually an eyesore. Sometimes, it prevents folks from doin' the route too (ie, this line is takin').
If the issue got taken to a land manager or law enforcement (heaven forbid!), how would they rule? I think you know the answer.
Err on the side of what the public might percieve, maybe. Climbing access and the ethics of leaving draws on a route for extended time. Work routes in the gym. Otherwise, I'd say, make the effort to clean up after yourself when you're done climbing for the day, and there won't be a hassle at all, eh?
Isn't it prouder, and better style, to hang the draws whilst you climb?
An admission, I've been "caught" bootying quick draws from sports climbs. On a couple of occasions. Both times, no one around. Draws were within easy reach from the ground. So, I boulder up and grab a couple. Then I hear this voice..."hey, why don't you try the line instead of rippin' the draws?". From across the way. Sort of an awkward moment. I climbed up, replace them, and sheepishly went over to chat. Very friendly exchange. No problemo. Was earlier on in my climbing career. Did I learn a lesson? Dunno. Maybe look around a bit more before bouldering up...har har.
Funny how ethics have changed. Very acceptable to prehang draws now. Used to be, some folks would pull not only the rope, but the gear too. For a "legitimate" ascent.
Sometimes I find distasteful how folks treat public land as if it were their own private gym...but...its folks havin' fun I suppose...
IMHO, FWIW...
Brian in SLC
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hugepedro
May 2, 2003, 9:37 PM
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In reply to: Most of you who are saying words to the effect that you'd never leave draws on a route overnight are, I suspect, not experienced sport climbers.
Jay,
I'd say there's probably different reasons for different people. Your suspicions are probably right in some cases.
One reason I wouldn't leave them is because I have heard of several cases just like this where they've been taken, so I wouldn't leave them without the expectation that they might not be there the next day.
But the main reason I wouldn't leave them is because this primarily-trad weakling has a different approach/mindset about climbing than your majority of sporties. My method of improvement is to climb at the level I'm capable until I'm strong enough to move up to the next level. Sure, I'll mix in top ropes of harder climbs as I'm on the verge of moving between grades, but usually when I feel I'm ready to move up I just lead it. Sure, I'm not climbing 5.13, and I may never get there using this approach, but that just doesn't matter to me. If my progression levels off leading .10 to .11 trad that will be perfectly fine with me. What I enjoy most is the lead, and for me it's not a lead unless I've placed the gear (or draws) from the ground up. To me, if you can hang the draws you can probably top rope it. If not, there are other climbs at that grade you can top rope until your strong enough to lead it. So what's the (pink) point? It's not a valid lead in my book.
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jt512
May 2, 2003, 9:53 PM
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In reply to: Whew, I hate to get some of this on me, but...FWIW... My thoughts are, if you are climbing on public land, and you decide to leave gear, overnight, unattended, then its really abandoned property. Some folks will consider it unsightly and remove it. Some folks will see free booty, and take the draws. If you're going to abandon your gear, then its not stealing to take it.
But you haven't "abandoned" your gear. You're coming back for it. If you park your car overnight on public land to go backpacking have you abondoned your car? Of course not. You're coming back for it. What's the difference?
In reply to: If I bootied your draw(s), and I knew they were yours, I'd return them. Pretty simple.
Simpler yet: leave the draws alone.
In reply to: Sometimes, it prevents folks from doin' the route too (ie, this line is takin').
No it doesn't, or shouldn't. If the draws are up and there's no one on the route, or about to get on it, the route is open. Period.
In reply to: If the issue got taken to a land manager or law enforcement (heaven forbid!), how would they rule? I think you know the answer.
If they'd rule that the draws were abandoned, then I'd like to know why they'd rule that the parked car wasn't. In reality, it would probably depend on the land manager. I'm guessing a knowledgable climbing ranger would rule in favor the person who put up the draws. I'd also guess that if the draws were up for a short time that the law would be in favor of the person who put up the draws. Finders isn't keepers. If the draws were up for months, they might be considered abandoned, but overnight, no.
In reply to: Work routes in the gym.
Yeah, who'd ever want to do a hard route outside. Onsight or nothing!
In reply to: Otherwise, I'd say, make the effort to clean up after yourself when you're done climbing for the day, and there won't be a hassle at all, eh?
Likewise, don't bolt and there won't be a hassle with that, don't use chalk and there won't be a hassle with that. Heck, don't even climb. There, no more climbing hassles!
In reply to: Isn't it prouder, and better style, to hang the draws whilst you climb?
Not since, like, 1990.
In reply to: Funny how ethics have changed. Very acceptable to prehang draws now. Used to be, some folks would pull not only the rope, but the gear too. For a "legitimate" ascent.
Yes, but they have changed.
In reply to: Sometimes I find distasteful how folks treat public land as if it were their own private gym...
I'm trying to think if I know anyone like that...
-Jay
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