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deadfish
May 2, 2003, 5:47 PM
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If I see another thread about someone dropping a biner from 5/10/20 feet onto slab/sand/rope wondering whether it should be retired...aaAAUUggghhh...
But the replies..."you never know if it might have micro-fractures from skittering 20 feet down that slab" or "my life is worth more than $8"...you know, there has been testing done on this...rather than spouting maybes and what-ifs, do a little research.
Black Diamond tested biners dropped off El Cap, and found that the ones that weren't visibly damaged broke at full strength. You can find a discussion on this at:
http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/misc.html
At the International Technical Rescue Symposium, 2000, Garin Wallace and Kevin Slotterbeck of SMC presented data on the strength of carabiners that had been dropped 27’ or 54’ onto concrete or asphalt. One by one, they dropped 115 new, SMC locking D aluminum carabiners. Then they broke the carabiners, measuring the breaking strengths.
What do Garin and Kevin say about using climbing hardware that has been dropped? Retire your hardware if you drop it (they do work for a manufacturer, after all). What do their numbers say? The carabiners that were dropped were no weaker than the un-dropped carabiners. In fact, the average strength of the dropped carabiners was slightly stronger than the un-dropped carabiners, but the difference was not statistically significant (during the presentation a certain engineer from an unnamed airplane manufacturer in the Seattle area was heard muttering something about forge hardening). It surprised me that the dropped carabiners did not lose strength, because a number of the carabiners suffered significant damage to the locking sleeve and/or hinge, and gouges on the frame.
It's ultimately up to you what you do with your gear...there's some probability that any piece of gear will fail, and that's why climbing systems are redundant. If you're hugely runout and finally get to place just one piece, maybe you should think about using two biners, opposed, regardless of whether you have ever dropped your gear. Un-dropped gear is not infallible, either. But sheeeesshhh...just relax about the dropping stuff!
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 5:56 PM
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The majority need to cling to prconceived generalization reagarding safety.
These same people change their oil every 3,000 despite evidence that shows this to be unneccessary. Ironically, they are usually the same boobs that spew oil conservation!
Amazing how many people buy into the propaganda delivered upon them by those whose only, and openly stated, issue is to make $$$.
The scores of people that buy into the info given them by:
The Access Fund
Gear Manufacturers
Climbing Mags
are just polishing the brass on the Titanic.....
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jumaringjeff
May 2, 2003, 7:21 PM
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Another thing to consider is a climber's confidence in his/her gear. Although it may be safe, if you've got that nagging feeling in the back of your head about a piece that you dropped, it could affect your focus on a route. Personally, if I'm on a 20ft. runout and all I have left on my rack is a piece that I dropped last weekend, it's gonna mess with my mind, regardless of what the studies say.
Whenever I'm leading, I make sure my gear/systems are sound to avoid any possible second-guessing while I'm halfway up the route hanging from my fingertips.
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camhead
May 2, 2003, 7:31 PM
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my life is worth more than $60. that's why I replace cams after I've fallen on them once. heh.
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michhiker
May 2, 2003, 7:42 PM
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Can I get some of those once fallen on cams? :lol:
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alpnclmbr1
May 2, 2003, 7:42 PM
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If you fall when there is only one piece between you and the ground your not going to last long as a climber. Whether that piece has been dropped should be besides the point. I try to treat every piece on my rack with suspicion as a general survival rule. At least two pieces protecting me, otherwise I am soloing.
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da5id
May 2, 2003, 9:24 PM
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It doesnt really piss me off when people joke around on this site, even when they respond disparagingly or patronizingly to honest questions. What does piss me off is when people who go around complaining constantly about what everyone else is doing on this site. I realise that I'm condemning myself in saying this, but get over it! It's not a big deal that people often repeat questions, especially important one's about gear safety. If you dont like the question then dont bother posting. I had a peice of gear that i wasn't sure i should use. So i used this site as it was designed to be used and got other's opinions on the matter. Sorry i dont know everything about climbing, and sorry i cant follow you around to soak up all your obvious expertise. Posting things such as this thread is an obvious attempt to show how much more you know than beginners like me, and a good chunk of the people on this site. And in fact you may know more than me, but guess what? I DONT CARE!!! So take your opinions on other people's innocent and cautious questions and shove them where the sun doesnt shine.
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drkodos
May 2, 2003, 9:55 PM
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In reply to: It doesnt really piss me off when people joke around on this site, even when they respond disparagingly or patronizingly to honest questions. What does piss me off is when people who go around complaining constantly about what everyone else is doing on this site. I realise that I'm condemning myself in saying this, but get over it! It's not a big deal that people often repeat questions, especially important one's about gear safety. If you dont like the question then dont bother posting. I had a peice of gear that i wasn't sure i should use. So i used this site as it was designed to be used and got other's opinions on the matter. Sorry i dont know everything about climbing, and sorry i cant follow you around to soak up all your obvious expertise. Posting things such as this thread is an obvious attempt to show how much more you know than beginners like me, and a good chunk of the people on this site. And in fact you may know more than me, but guess what? I DONT CARE!!! So take your opinions on other people's innocent and cautious questions and shove them where the sun doesnt shine.
As fine an example of the pot accusing the kettle of blackness as I've ever witnessed...
Keep up the good work!
:roll:
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deadfish
May 2, 2003, 10:08 PM
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dude (da5id)...get over yourself. don't you think it's a little egotistic of you to think i would devote an entire topic to criticizing you personally? if you take the time to read my post, i'm tired of hearing the same old questions because they never get answered. my criticism is directed at the people who reply based on no knowledge of the subject other than a gut feeling.
rather then hypocritically doing the same thing i ranted against (as you did in your post), i tried to rectify the situation by providing some useful information. if you find it useful, great. if not, i don't really care...the post is my solution to my own pet peeve that there is often nothing but opinion posted here.
and you sound just like a whiny little high school kid when you say you don't care if people know more than you...why else did you post here with a question in the first place?
as i implied in my first paragraph somewhat harshly, the previous post is not directed at you, and i don't think i had even read your post when i wrote it. every day somebody posts about dropping biner/cam/gri-gri/atc. in fact, it is not directed at anyone in particular. but since you did have a similar question, visit the fishproducts link or look up the SMC report and learn something from it so you feel better about dropping your gear, but don't get all bent out of shape.
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climbsomething
May 2, 2003, 10:22 PM
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In reply to: {snip some previous whining} And in fact you may know more than me, but guess what? I DONT CARE!!! So take your opinions on other people's innocent and cautious questions and shove them where the sun doesnt shine.
At least deadfish is offering some practical, useful information in response to the idea of "never use it again," which he seems to find quite misguided.
Quitcher snivveling already.
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da5id
May 2, 2003, 11:43 PM
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ill admit it was a pretty whiny post. i was in a really bad mood. but i still think its obnoxious when people say things like that. i mean really, just cause someone hasnt researched something thoroughly before asking a question is no reason to be snotty about it.
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da5id
May 3, 2003, 12:11 AM
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basically, i think were all being stupid. the more i think about it, the more i get sick of this forum. people (and i definitely include myself in that distinction) just overreact and get mad at eachother
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jt512
May 3, 2003, 12:21 AM
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In reply to: ill admit it was a pretty whiny post.
Then stop whining.
In reply to: i was in a really bad mood.
Seriously.
In reply to: but i still think its obnoxious when people say things like that. i mean really, just cause someone hasnt researched something thoroughly before asking a question is no reason to be snotty about it.
-Jay
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jt512
May 3, 2003, 12:23 AM
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In reply to: basically, i think were all being stupid. the more i think about it, the more i get sick of this forum. people (and i definitely include myself in that distinction) just overreact and get mad at eachother
*Whine* [Submit] *Whine*
-Jay
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da5id
May 3, 2003, 12:56 AM
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so i could basically say anything right now and you guys would write it off as whining?
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jt512
May 3, 2003, 1:04 AM
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In reply to: so i could basically say anything right now and you guys would write it off as whining?
*LOL* Stop. You're killing me here.
-Jay
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climbsomething
May 3, 2003, 1:11 AM
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I think Jay is punch-drunk... :roll:
;) :o :twisted: :lol: :shock: :x ;)
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da5id
May 3, 2003, 1:19 AM
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alright, this has gotten way out of hand, as I now finally realise. ignoring all of my previous whines, all that I was trying to say was that you cant blame people for not being experts on gear/climbing/metallurgy. I think that question is going to come up every month or so no matter what anybody does. thats all i was trying to say, and i think you (deadfish) made a good point.
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dmon
May 3, 2003, 1:20 AM
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Read the damn post properly da5id. He is not complaining about the questions, he is complaining about the ill informed answers.
And stop whining... :twisted:
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verticallaw
May 3, 2003, 2:29 AM
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O.k so if you children are done :roll: I cannot fathom a biner haveing a solid strength after being dropped from that height. I'm no engineer but I always belived it was the the solidness of the metal combined with the shape of the biner that gave it it's strength. When a biner is dropped visible damage is a sign of stuctural failure (or so I thought until this post). I have and do use two biners that rode down 2.5 pitches of slab but as they landed in a bush and had no visble damage other than scratches I felt it fine....... but if gates where mashed or slightly bent (solid gates not wire) I would have a tough time trusting it. Yes a clibing system is redundant and there is always a risk, as cimbers are we not tring to reduce the risk as much as possible (within reason) or has the sport become a race to crater?
If I dont change my oil for a year my car may catch on fire or just plain die
I probably wont fall to my death thinking " man I shoulda changed the oil!"
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deadfish
May 3, 2003, 2:42 AM
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verticallaw--i agree that if the biner is obviously mangled, retire it. the BD study i cited supports that also...black diamond said that biners w/o visible damage (other than scratches, etc) tested full strength. SMC actually found even pretty severely mangled biners breaking at full strength. point is not how much can you mangle a biner and still have it work. point is that none of the studies have shown that a dropped biner with only cosmetic damage does not exhibit loss of strength. so inspect your gear. if it's cracked, retire it. if it's shaped like a pretzel when it used to be an oval, retire it. if it looks pretty much like it used to, climb on it happily. regardless of whether you bounced it off the rock a few times.
i expect that a biner gets beat up far worse in the forging and subsequent final fit adjustment checks at the factory than through anything you could put it through
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da5id
May 3, 2003, 3:06 PM
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have they determined exactly what the point of too much damage is? i mean, exactly how big must a scratch or gouge be in order to necessitate a new biner? Or is it only if the actual overall shape of the biner that must be preserved?
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micahmcguire
May 3, 2003, 4:18 PM
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"superficial" is the key here. if the gouge is just your average scratch, then its likely enough fine (dont take my word for it, examine it yourself, I can't promise jack). Those are normal, and they really dont get very big or deep. If, however, you shoot or run over or otherwise change the shape of your biner (takes much much more than dropping it) then I'd get rid of it. Dunno how you'd scratch it or gouge it that deeply just by dropping it, but hey, I guess it can happen. I'd say anything 1/16" deep is gonna be kinda iffy, but hey, I dunno. Its a game of examining it and deciding for yourself. I am not gonna tell you to keep something I can't see.
People dont tend to think about what happens to a biner when it falls. Firstly, they weight so little, the actual force transmitted to the biner when it hits from falling is actually very small. Also, most biners are an aluminum alloy, and are designed to be soft and absorb impact without cracking internally. What you want to look for are problems with the gate, cracks around the pin, broken spring, etc. Those can cause real problems.
You got gear you want to throw away, you should send it my way first, I'll probably use it. Remember, most of the time when a piece pulls or gear otherwise fails, human error is often a large factor. Cams barely fail, the rock they are in busts much more often, I've never seen a biner break, but I've seen bolts fall out before, the gear is usually great, its how we set it up that usually screws us.
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illimaniman
May 3, 2003, 4:58 PM
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In reply to: alright, this has gotten way out of hand, as I now finally realise. ignoring all of my previous whines, all that I was trying to say was that you cant blame people for not being experts on gear/climbing/metallurgy. I think that question is going to come up every month or so no matter what anybody does. thats all i was trying to say, and i think you (deadfish) made a good point.
I disagree. People who are not experts shouldn't speak up. If you're sitting in class and the professor asks a question, and you don't know what you're talking about, you're not going to raise your hand and look like a jackass, are you? So why do people do it all the time on message boards?
We all know the saying: It's better to be quiet and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt.
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verticallaw
May 3, 2003, 5:40 PM
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Now this may be a mut point but has anyone ever noticed the SERIOUS gouges left at the top end of a biner from sport climbing???? THe biner in contact with the hanger gets some pretty serious gouges in it (far worse than the average drop. The thing that scares me is the gouges are in a pretty dam integural spot where most the stress would take place. I have alwasy been taught to esure that the QD's do not go upside down as the abraision from these gouges will affect your rope. These are more than superfisial scratches. I would be interested in seeing a study on the breaking strength of these biners
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