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ubotch
May 4, 2003, 3:45 AM
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I'm trying to figure out all this big wall stuff and I have a simple question (I think). When the leader gets to the top of a pitch how does he/she attach the rope for the second to ascend? Thanks for your help.
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bigdrop
May 4, 2003, 4:13 AM
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Attach what part of the rope to what? Please be more specific!
Rope paths:
-If using a plate device: leaders harness, clove hitches to anchors (to secure the leader), belay plate(secured to anchors), second’s harness
-If using a tube device: leaders harness, clove hitches to harness (to secure the leader), belay tube (attached to leaders harness), anchors, second’s harness.
Please correct me if you feel I am wrong or missed something.
~jca
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climbingcowboy
May 4, 2003, 4:20 AM
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If your talking about aid once the leader reaches the anchors and is ready to have the second come up he takes a bite of rope (either clove hitch or figure 8 ) and clips it to the anchor with a locker either one bomber bolt or a couple pieces equalized.
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ubotch
May 4, 2003, 4:29 AM
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Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Climbingcowboy gets what I am talking about. I was just wondering what knot you use to attach the rope to the anchor.
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climbingcowboy
May 4, 2003, 4:46 AM
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Someone might tell me I'm wrong but I've been using a clovehitch to have them come up because its much easier to undo then a 8 after its been waited. The aid video I watched used one.
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superbum
May 4, 2003, 4:48 AM
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Clove hitch is fine...if BACKED UP with a fig. 8 on a bite...the back-up fig 8 will be unweighted (unless the clove fails!) and thus will be a cinch to untie.
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lambone
May 4, 2003, 4:51 AM
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I don't agree that the clove is easier to get off the biner. i once had to cut the rope due to a seized clove. We spent 45 minutes working it...
Use a 8-on a bight fixed to the main power point. Double the biners, just so that your partner will like you more...
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lambone
May 4, 2003, 4:55 AM
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oh yeah, give yourself a good bit of slack to move around the anchor and haul with as well.
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bigdrop
May 4, 2003, 5:06 AM
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I no longer use figure eight knots for various reasons; bulkiness and being hard to untie are the main ones tho.
These three knots make excellent alternatives for their respective purposes:
Butterfly – secured bites mid rope
Clove – securing leader to anchor (use to separate cloves on different anchors)
Double bowline with Jack’s variation - to tie into harness (unties with much less, and unties clean (no remaining knot))
The clove shouldn’t get very tight because all its doing is carrying the relatively static weight of the leader hanging there..
~jca
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climbingcowboy
May 4, 2003, 6:17 AM
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Right on lambone you would know better then I would, I've only been practise aiding not a wall yet. Do you find it hard to untie the 8 though?
I forgot to mention the double biners thanks. I do use at least one unweighted 8 in the system though.
What do the rest of you guys with more experience use?
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timpanogos
May 4, 2003, 6:27 AM
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ubotch,
Aid leader will typically have two ropes with him at belay anchor - line they lead on, plus haul line - tie a butterfly in the lead line and attach to powerpoint (See PTPP's comments on "Transient Lockers" on PP). Sometimes worse than untying a jug-weighted knot is unloading a pinched rope in a crowed PP without transients.
2nd will then jug and clean the lead line (again see PTPP's comments on cleaning with a Grigri) - while leader hauls.
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lambone
May 4, 2003, 6:31 AM
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ya know, untieing the 8 isn't that bad...it isn't any worse then untieing an 8 after you've taken a sport climbing fall or two. Easier in fact cause it's on a bight.
The time when we had to cut the rope was an unusual circumstance...
The cleaner took a factor 2 fall onto the anchor. Yes, a factor 2.
I could explain the story now, but it's late...plus it'd be more fun if folks could try and guess how that could have happened. There is one particular pitch on El Cap where a fall like this is a distinct possibility...
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climbingcowboy
May 4, 2003, 7:04 AM
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would it be the fourth pitch of Tangerine Trip?
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lambone
May 4, 2003, 4:53 PM
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yup :shock:
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base104
May 5, 2003, 12:58 AM
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To add a different thought: I once took a clean as a whistle 40 foot factor 2 while hooking. Upside down and backwards, straight on to the anchor. The figure eight on my harness was near impossible to undo later. I had to tap it with my hammer for quite a while to untie. Tapping, not wailing on it. We used to have to do this sometimes with a really sucked up figure eight. It was common practice, but I doubt it is GOOD to your rope, so I'm not advocating you do it. So, I think from what we've heard, a clove or an eight can turn to iron under extreme forces. I wasn't at the belay when they took it down, but I assume it was also an eight on a bight, and turned to stone as well. This was back when part of the game was dicey anchors and the anchor that caught me was a single 1/4" bolt backed up with a bong behind a loose flake.
A factor 2 seems a rare event. I don't know how many pitches I've climbed, and I've taken some humongous whippers on runout free climbs. They are nothing compared to ripping straight to the anchor with nothing to slow you down but air. Only happened once to me.
We later used to prefer cloves over eights at stations because eights eat up a lot of rope. Cloves use almost nothing. If the pitch was a rope stretcher you could end up dismantling everything just to get the poor leader to the next anchors. These days of really long ropes have probably negated that problem on the older routes. Maybe on some of the new ones put up with really long ropes it still is. It was just part of the game, and I expect it still is.
I've never had any trouble taking down a clove from someone just jugging on it or even falling with a lot of rope out. I think we are talking about extreme cases here.
I guess the real implication of the clove that had to be cut, is soloing with one, like I always have. I use two biners, so it would probably be easier, but I guess it could still be a problem. Something to think about, anyway.
Sorry to turn this into a knot thread.
Mark
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craterlater
May 5, 2003, 4:34 PM
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In reply to: Rope paths: -If using a plate device: leaders harness, clove hitches to anchors (to secure the leader), belay plate(secured to anchors), second’s harness -If using a tube device: leaders harness, clove hitches to harness (to secure the leader), belay tube (attached to leaders harness), anchors, second’s harness.
And:
In reply to: The clove shouldn’t get very tight because all its doing is carrying the relatively static weight of the leader hanging there.. ~jca
I see. Are you aware that you are posting to an aid climbing forum? Have you lead or cleaned even one pitch of aid? Look, I think it's great to have someone newer around who wants to figure all this aid climbing crap out, but I'd recommend you do some more listening and offer a little less BS advice.
Jug just one pitch on rope that is fixed with a clove hitch and come back and tell us how cinched down you thought it was.
Thanks for playing.
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benkiessel
May 6, 2003, 4:14 PM
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i have been using a bowline on a bite and then backing it up with a figure eight on a bite. i have had no problems and the bowline comes undone easily after being weighted.
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