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tori
May 4, 2003, 6:41 AM
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several books and reliable sources recommend the simple overhand knot to join two ropes for rappel. it is smaller and has one side that has no bulk (flat) and so is much less likely to get stuck when the ropes are pulled. it should be dressed tightly and have tails around ten to twelve inches. I have always used the double fisherman, but want to take advantage of better methods for multi pitch. I just tied an overhand knot and jumped all around on it here at home and it looked fine. the downside is that it looks less substantial than the double fisherman, and my friends think i'm full of s&*t and won't rap after me on it. so how many use this knot, and did it work? of course I'm sure we will only hear the success stories. :wink:
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tahquitztwo
May 4, 2003, 7:04 AM
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I always use either the double fisherman's and/or the double figure 8 with fisherman backups.....so do the folks I climb with.
someplace on the site there's a thread I remember reading written by a climber who lost his friend because the double over hand they were using failed (even with long tails). I can't remember which section it was in....sorry :(
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apollodorus
May 4, 2003, 7:32 AM
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The simple overhand knot in both rope tails is facetiously called a European Death Knot (EKD). Many people swear by it for rapping, because it's less likely to snag on a flake or ledge.
I've always used the figure-8 knot and never it get stuck on an edge where it couldn't be freed by whipping the rope to make waves in it. But, maybe I've just been lucky.
Any knot can still get stuck in a crack, which is probably how most ropes get seriously stuck on rappel, anyway. You avoid this by judicious pulling of the rope, preferably from a strategic location left or right of the crack, and maybe keeping the wind in mind.
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tori
May 4, 2003, 7:40 AM
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i just read that thread and the petzel site as well, i kind of know the tech side of it, i just want to see what regular folks do every day. it may be easier to improperly tie the EDK, than a dbl fisherman, but the gain in rope retrevial would be worth it. from the testing i read even a poorly dressed EDK won't roll under body weight. i think the death was also a result of a fig eight of some type, but no one really knows for sure. i guess what really matters is the knot i tie, and they all work if tied properly.
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puma
May 4, 2003, 10:25 PM
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I use the EDK quite often, especially if there is any chance of features on the wall to hang up the rope. Many of my partners who were not familiar with this method, know me as being very safe, and trusted me when I thought we should use this method. As well as being dressed properly the EDK should have 2' tails. However, on routes w/ multiple raps where there aren't rope-eating flakes and features (ie. Royal Arches) I will use the F8-follow thru w/ at least 6" tails. I don't bother w/ a dbl fisherman because it doesn't "back up" anything and only acts as a stopper. I guess if you do use one and it stops your rope, you will have to go "back up".
Lg
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slavetogravity
May 4, 2003, 10:49 PM
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THE WORST FRICKIN’ KNOT TO TIE TWO ROPES TOGETHER WITH IS THE DOUBLE FISHERMANS!!!!!! If I had a nickel for every time I or someone else got their rope stuck because they chose to tie their ropes together using a fisherman’s knot, I’d have me shit load of nickels. You may call the overhand knot the “European death knot” but I like to call the double fisherman’s, the “American epic knot.”
Go out in the mountain some time, get stuck in a storm, and start your first of 13 rappels, using a double fisherman’s. After the fifth or sixth time you get your rope jammed in a crack, hung up on the lip of some edge, and are forced to jug up, reclimb, or cut your rope, you just might reconsider your choice of knot.
Cheers.
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sonso45
May 5, 2003, 12:06 AM
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For years I also used the Dbl Fishrmns and it was constantly getting stuck. A good friend and very experienced climber started me on the overhand knot and I have used it for raps for many years now and never had any inkling of trouble with it. I have had it get stuck so it isn't perfect; I have never even noticed it slip, untie or otherwise make me uncomfortable. M
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calpolyclimber
May 5, 2003, 12:09 AM
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I use it and trust it fully. Just leave LONG tails. The knot may roll once, MAYBE even twice, but it will not come undone
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benkiessel
May 5, 2003, 12:59 AM
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i would have to agree with tahquitztwo i always use the figure eight with fisherman back up or a double fishermans
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clymber
May 5, 2003, 1:28 AM
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ive said this before and ill say it again
DEATH and KNOT should not be in the same sentence and that close together
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rockvoyager
May 5, 2003, 1:51 AM
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Someplace, somehow I ended up following a thread on this subject. Wish I could remember where it was but when you get old......
The gist was this. The overhand knot was completely safe while the figure eight would roll over itself when loaded. I infer from this that the F8 is actually the EDK, not the overhand.
I've had mini epics using the fishermans, overhand, single F8 and the double 8. Now I just use the D8, it satisfies my desire to leave "big air" to the motorcycle crowd
Brad
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valleyjunkie
May 5, 2003, 1:54 AM
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I've used the overhand knot for joining two ropes of both the same diameter (9.8mm) and also two different diameters (9.8mm and 8mm) and have had no problems or concerns. When the knot is dressed down and finished, with a seperate overhand on each strand dressed flush to the base of the main knot, I am left with about 1 foot tails. The key is dressing everything down flush, especially with ropes of different diameters.
-Chris
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rockprodigy
May 5, 2003, 2:32 AM
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Alls I know is I've never heard of anyone dying from a double 8 coming untied, but I have heard of people dying from the EDK. To me it's not worth the risk. In 12 years of climbing I've had to jug up a rope twice and cut 50' of one once...but I'm still alive.
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theclimer
May 5, 2003, 2:51 AM
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In reply to: Alls I know is I've never heard of anyone dying from a double 8 coming untied, but I have heard of people dying from the EDK. To me it's not worth the risk. In 12 years of climbing I've had to jug up a rope twice and cut 50' of one once...but I'm still alive.
Here is an informative link on the subject:
http://rockclimbing.com/...highlight=edk+rappel
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straightedgeteen
May 5, 2003, 3:15 AM
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In reply to: The simple overhand knot in both rope tails is facetiously called a European Death Knot (EKD). Many people swear by it for rapping, because it's less likely to snag on a flake or ledge. I've always used the figure-8 knot and never it get stuck on an edge where it couldn't be freed by whipping the rope to make waves in it. But, maybe I've just been lucky. Any knot can still get stuck in a crack, which is probably how most ropes get seriously stuck on rappel, anyway. You avoid this by judicious pulling of the rope, preferably from a strategic location left or right of the crack, and maybe keeping the wind in mind.
Haha i was just about to say that.....EURO DEATH NOT
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pico23
May 5, 2003, 4:09 AM
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Works fine. Dress it tight, leave atleast a foot tail. Works with different diameter ropes just fine. It will sometimes invert. This is normal but it will not fail under anything near a normal load provided there are reasonable (12 inch) tails. Seems like this is a recurring thread.
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rrrADAM
May 5, 2003, 4:42 AM
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I use the EDK (overhand) for all my double rope raps, as do most of my friends.
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leec
May 5, 2003, 6:48 PM
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A century or two ago I swapped from double fishermans to the simple overhand. End of rope SNAFU's. OK - at least the knot derived ones.
If you're unsure, or simply don't trust the opinions of these posts go check the recommendations of the UIAGM. The International Mountain Guides Association are usually pretty credible - certainly good enough for the US guides to follow their lead. I know they're heavily biased by the french, but lets not hoild that against them.. There's a gulf of difference between Paris and Chamonix.
Besides, the overhand only has any concerns when there is insufficient tail for the knot to roll as it tightens. If in doubt leave three to four feet. Hell, you've got 50 or sixty metres - if a few feet is that critical maybe you should be rapping to a mid point or something.
If you're that paranoid go buy a longer rope - like 120m and quit whinning.
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sspssp
May 5, 2003, 7:37 PM
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Most of the"official" mountainering guide services recommend the EDK, as does the group that does the official rope testing (e.g. number of falls, etc.). Maybe someone who is more savy about searching can post a few more links. The EDK is even being recommended for top ropping.
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pico23
May 5, 2003, 8:21 PM
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In reply to: Most of the"official" mountainering guide services recommend the EDK, as does the group that does the official rope testing (e.g. number of falls, etc.). Maybe someone who is more savy about searching can post a few more links. The EDK is even being recommended for top ropping.
Yep it is the only UIAA approved rappel knot. Hmm, we trust the UIAA for everything else in terms equipment safety but not this knot.
As far as people dying as someone posted above it's simply not true. Yes, the knot can fail if poorly tied and without sufficient tails but all it takes is a few seconds and a little care to avoid. ANY POORLY TIED KNOT CAN FAIL. More importantly most people who have died using a version of the EDK have been killed with the OVERHAND FIGURE 8 EDK. THIS IS A BAD KNOT TO USE. I'm actually suprised that Don Mellors book "A Trailside Guide to Rockclimbing" recommends the overhand FIGURE 8 EDK (if I read correctly while browsing the book) as all the real world test i've seen by reputable sources show the Figure 8 EDK is prone to failure at suprisingly low loads even with long tails. It also works less well with different diameter ropes.
This has to be on the list for the most annoying recurring threads. Maybe we need a EDK FAQ at the top of the list.
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ljthawk
May 5, 2003, 8:32 PM
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For some testing, check out
http://www.needlesports.com/gearreviews/abseilknots.htm
Fyi, 1000N is ~225 lbs and 300 N is ~67 lbs
and
http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
L.J.
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kinch
May 5, 2003, 8:37 PM
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Another research paper on characteristics of rope-joining knots, including the EDK.
http://www.bwrs.org.au/research/
kinch
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zetedog
May 5, 2003, 8:44 PM
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The overhand is fine, as the testing points out.
Just as an FYI, there are, and continue to be, some discrepancies about what a EDK actually is. Most Americans consider the EDK to be an Overhand. Some (but not all) Europeans will refer to an non- retraced figure of eight as an EDK (the retraced is where the rapping ends of the knot leave opposite sides, the non-retraced eight is where the rapping ends of the rope leave the same side and the "tails" leave together on the opposite side)
Some websites have noted this, and I have run into this with some of my friends that I have climbed with that are from the other side of the pond.
Make sure you look carefully at the data in the websites to see which one they are talking about.
The overhand knot tests fine. The eight does not (it uses up too much rope if it rolls). The accident out in Zion is believed to be an eight, not an overhand (see rec.climbing)
Todd (who's used an overhand for about 7 years now)
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brianinslc
May 5, 2003, 8:47 PM
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Overhand (in line) always for joining two rope for rappelling for me. Only exception might be if the wall is super steep, and I'm rapping against a knot (knot jammed against a chain link or rapide) single strand.
Brian in SLC
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