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maypop
May 5, 2003, 5:27 PM
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Stripping a fully equipped route at a sport area isn't even traditional bootying -- it's just theft. Even in the trad realm, only gear-geeks who are more fascinated by collecting shiny things then leading an honest, rewarding life subscribe to this stupid practice.
I did a route at Seneca Rocks -- Cottonmouth, I think -- a number of years ago and came across an overcamed Metolius unit. When I rapped off, a guy offered me $10 bucks to buy his own piece back! No way -- I've been there myself too many times.
Obviously, if there's no way to return the gear, you can keep it. But if there's any hint that the owner is still in the area -- such as a fully equipped sport route that's only been up for a few days -- you leave other people's things alone. In rare casess where climbers are generally concerned about too-visable gear causing access problems, it might be okay to strip the route and leave all the draws on the second bolt, with a note of explanation.
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mzllr
May 5, 2003, 5:39 PM
Post #127 of 177
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In reply to: Thank you to the people who support me. A big f you to all the people who support climbers stealing from one another and theft in general.
this is like saying all the people who didn't support the war in iraq are un-american....
i don't think anyone here supports the actions of those stealing other's property. i think the idea is if you leave your $hit, you run the risk of someone taking it. it's wrong, but it happens... everywhere... not just in climbing. if you want to be 100% sure that your draws won't be stolen, then take them with you. if you leave them, you run the risk of some a$$hole taking them.... everywhere... not just in areas where local ethics say differently.
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jt512
May 5, 2003, 5:42 PM
Post #128 of 177
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In reply to: Thank you to the people who support me. A big f you to all the people who support climbers stealing from one another and theft in general. I'm willing to accept that there are others who don't share the idea of working routes. Gear (sport or trad) left overnight is widely(international) accepted as not free for the taking. Did I learn a lesson? Yes. Part of me now distrusts all climbers because of one idiot.
My takehome from this thread is that it's not just one idiot. If this thread is representative of the climbing "community" then it is clear that the majority of climbers can at least justify stealing project draws. Well, at least the thieves admit who they are.
-Jay
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jt512
May 5, 2003, 5:57 PM
Post #129 of 177
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In reply to: - jt512 made a big mistake crossing into ad Hominem attacks on ronithorne.
Perhaps. This whole thread has been unbelievable. Leaving draws on hard sport project is standard practice. Takking them is theft. Period. End of story. I'm pretty tired of all the trad climbers, newbies, and 5.9 first ascensionists in this thread blaming the victim or justifying theft.
-Jay
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maypop
May 5, 2003, 6:02 PM
Post #130 of 177
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*I'm pretty tired of all the trad climbers, newbies, and 5.9 first ascensionists in this thread blaming the victim or justifying theft.*
Dude, please do not buy into the whole my-group-is-better-than-your-group nonsense. Who cares what style you climb -- just don't steal. I've climbed 5.13a sport routes (2) but I'd call myself trad-oriented. That doesn't mean that I or all trad climbers can't figure out right from wrong.
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cedk
May 5, 2003, 6:05 PM
Post #131 of 177
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Well some admit who they are. Lots of others hide behind annonymous screen names.
I can't beleive how many people can justify the theft by just saying "hey there are mean people and you should have known." That's like saying rape victims don't have a case because they knew there were rapists out there and they could have been wearing a burkha and a chastity belt. Don't blame the victim guys.
If the theif really took the draws for a legitimate, non malicious, reason, as some of you really want to believe, I think someone would already have mentioned seeing a posting at a local gearshop or any of the numerous websites, explaining why they were pulled and where they can be retrieved.
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cedk
May 5, 2003, 6:09 PM
Post #132 of 177
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I climb trad and I'm not offended at all by what JT512 has said because he's been one of the few people in this thread fighting on the right side. Theft is wrong.
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bigdrop
May 5, 2003, 6:22 PM
Post #133 of 177
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Theft! Plain and simple.
I would like to think otherwise but I’m sorry I can’t. In my mind there was no justifiable reason for what this “thief” did.
If it where one draw on a route or an abandoned anchor I might think differently, but people we are talking about many draws in succession!
The route was obviously left as a project, and whether he agrees with the hanging draws or not, its not up to him to address the situation. He could most certainly, in his right, try to address the person responsible. But just because he doesn’t agree with someone else’s practice doesn’t give him the right to keep someone else’s property.
What a poor way to try and justify stealing something from someone.
--
I once found a wallet on the street, full of bills and cards. I drove to the address on the drivers licence and returned the wallet in the exact condition I found it. WHY? :idea: BECAUSE IF I LOST MY WALLET I WOULD APPRECIATE SOMEONE DOING THE SAME FAVOR FOR ME.
--
~JCA
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mhr2000
May 5, 2003, 6:41 PM
Post #134 of 177
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In reply to: I can't beleive how many people can justify the theft by just saying "hey there are mean people and you should have known." That's like saying rape victims don't have a case because they knew there were rapists out there and they could have been wearing a burkha and a chastity belt. Don't blame the victim guys.
Your statement here is to broad. Even though the rapist would be completely wrong in everyway possible, there are many cases where the victim should accept part of the blame. Should a women be able to walk down the street at 2am? SURE!! SHOULD SHE? NO! What somebody hopes for and wants versus Reality!
Same thing applies to these draws. Should he be able to leave the draws up for days or even weeks? SURE!! SHOULD HE? NO!
I sure as heck can't control reality so all I can do is protect myself and not put myself in a situation that I know has risks that I cannot accept. I will never walk down dark alleys JUST because I should be able to, it's too risky for my taste.
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cedk
May 5, 2003, 6:57 PM
Post #135 of 177
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If the victim should accept any of the blame all of you people who sit here and shake your heads and say "well that's the way it is." and just accept it are more to blame. As for me I'll stand up when I see something that's wrong just like I'd hope other people would stand up for me.
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mhr2000
May 5, 2003, 7:13 PM
Post #136 of 177
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I think there is a difference also between "wanting to stand up" and being able to. Talk is cheap! Standing up and taking action is a whole other ballgame. Are you going to become a vigilante? You going to patrol the area night and day? There is more to "standing up" then just words on a message board.
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raingod
May 5, 2003, 7:18 PM
Post #137 of 177
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In reply to: If the victim should accept any of the blame all of you people who sit here and shake your heads and say "well that's the way it is." and just accept it are more to blame. As for me I'll stand up when I see something that's wrong just like I'd hope other people would stand up for me.
On another note I hate it when I see draws idle on a project (not condoning theft though)
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brianinslc
May 5, 2003, 7:28 PM
Post #138 of 177
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[quote="jt512 Perhaps. This whole thread has been unbelievable. Leaving draws on hard sport project is standard practice. Takking them is theft. Period. End of story. I'm pretty tired of all the trad climbers, newbies, and 5.9 first ascensionists in this thread blaming the victim or justifying theft.
-Jay
This whole thread has been unbelievable.
Leaving draws could be construed the same as leaving garbage and/or abandoned gear. Picking them off a route is the same as takin' out the trash. Period. End of story. I'm pretty tired of all the sport climbers blaming the folks cleaning up after them as justification for calling them thieves and not having the common courtesy to take care of the precious climbing environment, where access and general public perception is always an issue.
Maybe folks are just too lazy to rehang draws? Isn't it better style to lead whilst placing draws? Isn't it better style to clean up after yourself when you are done for the day? That way, if you can't get out of the bed the next morning, are called away on something more important, sick, whatever, then your gear won't be around for other folks to have to take care of. Personal responsibility.
Leavin' draws/gear on a route seems sort of like daring someone to knock the battery off your shoulder. Begs for confrontation. Why not just avoid the whole issue and clean up after yourself? Its the right thing to do.
Sort of in jest. Sort of.
I sport climb and trad climb. And, occasionally, I leave a bail biner. Help yourself. Sorry for not pickin' up after myself. Please take my biner and my humble apology for not following the standard practise of "leave no trace".
Brian in SLC
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cedk
May 5, 2003, 7:40 PM
Post #139 of 177
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Telling people something is wrong is braver than shrugging your shoulders and walking away. I'm sorry MHR but that's what it sounded to me like you're condoning. If I see someone stealling your gear I'll damn sure tell them they better not. If they persist and it looks like a fight I can't win I'll evaluate my options. If it looks like a fight I can win, I'll evaluate that option as well.
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mzllr
May 5, 2003, 7:43 PM
Post #140 of 177
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this thread has seem to become more idealists vs. realists.
the idealist says "it's climber ethics and internationally accepted that you can leave draws up on a route and have them be there when you get back.
the realist says "turn you back for 2 seconds and there's a chance someone is going to steal your stuff."
everyone on earth has been told since they were kids that "stealing is wrong." but that doesn't stop some people, and with the growth of the climbing community you have to expect that people with questionable characters are going to be joining the ranks. so what may have been a completely safe and accepted practice 1, 2, 5, 10 years ago, you may want to think twice about now.
so the realist in me says "even in the best of neighborhoods, set the alarm on your car."
the realist in me says "never leave the atm before putting you money in your pocket."
and the realist in me says "never leave your gear unattended."
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alpinestylist
May 5, 2003, 7:49 PM
Post #141 of 177
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I just read all 10 PAGES of this thread and my head is spinning.
I do not consider myself a sport climber. I have been on the Example, and would never consider leaving draws on it. It is fully at a popular and crowded crag. Last time I was at this cliff, the example stood at the top of the trail, EVERYONE that climbed here is forced to walk by and notice.
I suspect you leaving your draws was not all about convenience, maybe you are making up for biological inadequacies.
Leaving ANY type of fixed gear is inviting it to get jacked. Maybe next time you will use a different equation when deciding to leave gear. It sucks that people steal, I don't feel one bit sorry for you.
Leave draws fixed on an 11a at Rifle and see how long they last!
13a isn't hard anymore, so the rational that being hard and requiring work justifies it doesn't hold water.
Just on a side note, I mention this only to show that bad things can happen in a variety of areas.
In the winter of 01 I went into the Black Canyon NP in Colorado and spent 9 days soloing a new aid route. The North Rim road had been closed all winter, creating a 5 mile ski in, and there had only been one other registered party in there the whole winter. I topped out, fixed the rope to a tree, undid my harness and walked away. I was completely whooped, mentally fried and just wanted to be doing anything but climbing. I went back to the world, and came back 3 days later...all my shit was gone! The park service had opened the road for 1 day and somebody had jacked me...did I try to recover my stuff, YES! (lots of gear gone, way more than a couple draws), did I cry, no, my actions, my responsibility.
The next weekend I went to the Black again to try and climb two routes in a day. I left my backpack cached near the rim (hidden, but not well enough) with water to slam in between routes. Upon topping out I eagerly ran to my pack and it was gone! Vamoos...nada!
LAST TIME I HAVE EVER LEFT ANYTHING ANYWHERE!
Don't cry, just learn
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cedk
May 5, 2003, 7:59 PM
Post #142 of 177
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well I guess the jury is in. Even JT512 isn't trying to argue this one anymore.
You convinced me guys. Henceforth I shall not trust my fellow climbers.
Alpinestyle. You lost your whole aid rack and you didn't even cry a little bit? I would have. Did you tell the insurance company it was stolen from the living room or something? :lol:
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maypop
May 5, 2003, 8:06 PM
Post #143 of 177
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Brian, your arguments are goofy. Chalk is more visable than 'draws, and yes, it sometimes draws the ire of non-climbers. But chalk is so damn useful that nearly all of us carry and use it -- though hopefully not to excess. Other groups sometimes object to chalk, but climbers have the right to make a minimal impact -- just as hikers (who create trails and tent sites), bikers and other outdoor-folk do. Leaving 'draws up in a sport area is a well-accepted practice and well within the norms of the sport -- stealing 'draws at Shelf Road has nothing to do with a Leave No Trace ethic -- or any ethical code!
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apolobamba
May 5, 2003, 8:19 PM
Post #144 of 177
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Sorry to here about your aid rack.
Now, stealing packs from the base of a climb is pretty f(#$% up. I have heard of that crap at Tahquitz a couple of times.
It used to be common practice to stash our gear and rope in the Southern Seirra. No more -You can not trust anyone. HESUS, I got my Patagonia pullover stolen from my gym, LA Rockreation. It was never more 15 feet from me the whole night.
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mhr2000
May 5, 2003, 8:28 PM
Post #145 of 177
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In reply to: Telling people something is wrong is braver than shrugging your shoulders and walking away. I'm sorry MHR but that's what it sounded to me like you're condoning.
Sorry, but I don't condone theft, violence or any other kind of lawlessness. Learning to protect yourself and accepting risks does not mean you condone these actions.
In reply to: If I see someone stealling your gear I'll damn sure tell them they better not. If they persist and it looks like a fight I can't win I'll evaluate my options. If it looks like a fight I can win, I'll evaluate that option as well.
Now this boggles my mind! As if it's so easy to know when somebody is stealing gear or taking their own gear down. I for one wouldn't know your quickdraws from anyone elses. Am I supposed to accuse everyone I see at the crags as being thieves just in case? I'm sure to make plenty of friends that way.
Oh yeah.... I won't ever start a fight and ending a fight will consist of me walking the other direction. Yes, I am a chickenpoo who realizes people get shot for no reason at all and I won't take that risk over some quickdraws. If somebody was in trouble, that would be a whole other situation, but not over equipment. And if you think getting shot is a slim possibility.... tell that to all the people that have been.
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brianinslc
May 5, 2003, 8:33 PM
Post #146 of 177
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In reply to: Sorry to here about your aid rack. Now, stealing packs from the base of a climb is pretty f(#$% up. I have heard of that crap at Tahquitz a couple of times. It used to be common practice to stash our gear and rope in the Southern Seirra. No more -You can not trust anyone. HESUS, I got my Patagonia pullover stolen from my gym, LA Rockreation. It was never more 15 feet from me the whole night.
Bummer!
Some of us (Brutus could chime in here!) leave a note attached to our gear explaining the reason for leaving it unattended, even if only for the day (ie, like fixin' a rope to the rim from the Lost Arrow Spire. How would that suck?).
Yeah, chalk and fixed pro (ie bolts and chain anchors) are eyesores to non climbers usually.
I respect fixed draws on sports routes if I see someone workin' the route and especially if we chat. No problemo. And, if I did booty fixed gear, even a stuck cam, I'd return it to its owner happily if I could locate them. No problemo.
Climbers can limit impact. Its a choice. I'd say err on the side of being conservative. White chalk marks aren't near as visible as drawing swinging in the sunlight. And, some folk don't know that it ain't bird poo.
An interesting aside: story goes that the Lost Arrow Spire in the City of Rocks, ID was nicknamed "Rope Thief Spire" after G. Lowe took the fixed line down that had been hanging off it for a spell. Came back an a later ascent and found a note claiming the first ascent and bumming about rope being gone. Anyone know this story or have additional detail? Kinda interesting. Was in mid sixties or so? Hmmm...
Apolobamba, hey, rockreation Wednesday night? Maybe see you there...
Brian in SLC
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jt512
May 5, 2003, 8:41 PM
Post #147 of 177
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In reply to: *I'm pretty tired of all the trad climbers, newbies, and 5.9 first ascensionists in this thread blaming the victim or justifying theft.* Dude, please do not buy into the whole my-group-is-better-than-your-group nonsense.
I'm not. I both trad and sport climb. My point - which, admittedly, I'm having trouble articulating - is that the trad climbers and the newbies, who aren't working hard projects - aren't in a position to judge this issue. And they are the ones in this thread who are condoning, or at least, excusing, the stealing. The point I have been trying to make is that they are not in a position to judge.
In reply to: Who cares what style you climb -- just don't steal. I've climbed 5.13a sport routes (2) but I'd call myself trad-oriented. That doesn't mean that I or all trad climbers can't figure out right from wrong.
I know, but under the frightening assumption that this thread is representative, a shockingly large percentage of climbers can't.
-Jay
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brianinslc
May 5, 2003, 9:00 PM
Post #148 of 177
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[quote="jt512"]I'm not. I both trad and sport climb. My point - which, admittedly, I'm having trouble articulating - is that the trad climbers and the newbies, who aren't working hard projects - aren't in a position to judge this issue. And they are the ones in this thread who are condoning, or at least, excusing, the stealing. The point I have been trying to make is that they are not in a position to judge.
If you are climbing on public land, then the public has a right to judge. Period. Doesn't matter whether you are a sport-o or bad trad daddy.
I've climbed at Shelf Road. Didn't see any draws hanging there, was pretty quiet. But, was over 10 years ago, so, maybe the scene has changed. And, speakin' of impact, wasn't there a sign on private land that said "absolutely no rok climbing" or the like? Gee, I wonder why...
Its not stealing. Them draws are being liberated!
Ha ha.
Your draws can't do the talkin' for you. Best you sit on 'em to avoid any confusion. Or leave a friendly note.
Myopia. Sport climbing is only a part of the bigger picture of climbing. But, a very visible (gee, and sometimes audible) part.
Hmmm...wonder what the Access Fund position on leaving draws would be?
Brian in SLC
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jt512
May 5, 2003, 9:15 PM
Post #149 of 177
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[quote="brianinslc"][quote="jt512"]I'm not. I both trad and sport climb. My point - which, admittedly, I'm having trouble articulating - is that the trad climbers and the newbies, who aren't working hard projects - aren't in a position to judge this issue. And they are the ones in this thread who are condoning, or at least, excusing, the stealing. The point I have been trying to make is that they are not in a position to judge.
In reply to: If you are climbing on public land, then the public has a right to judge.
I agree. And where I sport climb -- and I suspect where you sport climb (if you do) -- the deal is this:
1. There is little or no public.
2. The public doesn't mind.
or
3. Leaving the draws up is an insignificant problem compared with the real impact of sport climbing.
WRT the last point, it is BS that the public doesn't mind the barking dogs, screaming teenagers, mass quantities of chalk, bolts, etc., but then goes berserk when 10 draws are left on some guys 5.13c project overnight. I'll say it again, first the nice way: you guys are being hypothetical, and next the not-so-nice way: you are talking out of your asses.
In reply to: Its not stealing. Them draws are being liberated!
Why don't you liberate the bolts, too, while you're at it?
In reply to: Your draws can't do the talkin' for you. Best you sit on 'em to avoid any confusion. Or leave a friendly note.
Now you are contradicting yourself. If the draws shouldn't be left up because they are unsightly, then what help will leaving a note be -- just some litter to "liberate."
In reply to: Myopia. Sport climbing is only a part of the bigger picture of climbing. But, a very visible (gee, and sometimes audible) part.
But more often not very visible, and when it is, a handful of draws left up is not the access issue.
-Jay
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emelia
May 5, 2003, 9:22 PM
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In reply to: well I guess the jury is in. Even JT512 isn't trying to argue this one anymore.
JT512 isn't arguing this one anymore because he has lost all credibility. He publicly denounced as a liar a member of this forum (roninthorne) who is well known to many on here both as a climber and as a friend. The spray in his own profile stinks worse than a skunks and he has a laughable, unearned elitist attitude. All of which adds up to the picture of a small-minded person desperately lacking in character, ethics and morals who is willing to make himself heard at anyone's expense, including his own.
I consider Michael a good friend and I will not allow this kind of crap to go unanswered...so have at me if you will.
As far as the issue goes, I am NOT a sport climber....trad, ice and mixed. In all honesty, I tend to be more of a mountaineering kinda person. I'm probably totally off track, but I am equating this with leaving fixed ropes on the mountain.....but I guess the circumstances are pretty different...anyway, for what it's worth, if I left my ropes and pro up there and went down to BC to rest and came back up and they were gone, I'd be pissed and would consider them stolen...but then, you don't get much traffic up there and you generally know who else is on the mountain, so you don't think about it.
Sorry this happened...probably not much chance to recover it, but ya never know.....the more people who get involved in this sport, the more bad apples you're gonna encounter and the more vigilant we'll all have to be.
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