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jds100
May 6, 2003, 1:25 PM
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This is my post into the So Ill Beer Fest thread, copied here for clarity and attention. Thanks for your consideration of this matter.
With apologies to the good people and intentions behind this gathering, as President of the Illinois Climbers Association, I'm letting everyone know here that this gathering is not welcome at Jackson Falls. I've spoken with Andy about this and about the reasons for this position taken by the ICA, and I think it's time that everyone who is considering being involved have the opportunity to reconsider.
Jackson Falls is a primitive, relatively remote area with no ammenities, and is the principal destination for sport climbing in southern Illlinois. As Andy has acknowledged, the area has already seen more than its fair share of impact damage. The ICA is working cooperatively, productively, and effectively with the Shawnee NFS to mitigate this damage, while still keeping climbing a recognized and welcomed use of the National Forest lands. Large gatherings are not typical for Jackson Falls, and would undoubtedly bring a surge in impact damage. With all due respect, no one can vouch for the abilities and behavior of all the climbers that might attend this gathering, and given the sensitive nature of the environment, both in term of the actual environment and in terms of climbing access at Jackson Falls, the fun and good times of this "event" aren't worth the risks inherent with a large "Beer Fest". Risks include, but are not limited to, injury in a remote and difficult environment for rescue (I speak from experience); and conflict with other users of the area, likely with over-crowding.
There are a number of matters that would likely arise that would prohibit the event being allowed in advance; permits would be needed and would likely not be granted; if the event took place anyway, then local and NFS officials could easily be called in to break it up, and that would have the profoundly negative impact on climbing that we are trying to avoid. Any discussion of "donations" or exchange of money for beer costs or donations to RC.com, or for any other purpose, raise conflicts with the policies of the Shawnee NFS and local and county alcohol regulations, and with Shawnee NFS regulations for "guiding" permits, which encompass fees given for any purpose (service and/or product) associated with an experience on the NFS land.
There is a fair amount of positive and productive activity between the ICA and the Shawnee NFS, as well as other land management jurisdictions in southern Illinois. Unfortunately, in the judgement of the ICA and myself as President, this gathering is not consistent with the best and long-term interests of climbers and climbing in southern Illinois.
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mhr2000
May 6, 2003, 1:41 PM
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Well, I think your blowing this whole thing WAY out of proportion. It appears to me that everyone who is going are avid climbers and we are mostly climbers who live in towns which have very few climbers. We are simply trying to meet new people. Also, if you read the thread, many are only coming for 1 or 2 days and are spread out over the entire event time. I doubt there will more then 10 or 12 people on any one day.
I have no doubts that this gathering will be nothing close to an all out free for all bash. Everyone is going in order to enjoy a great time climbing. The beer thing is just something to do at night while pondering the days events.
In any case, I really don't appreciate you making assumptions and trying to stop something without knowing our full intentions.
Unless I missed something I haven't seen any mention of donations to RC.COM. This gathering has nothing to do with them.
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jds100
May 6, 2003, 2:35 PM
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With all due respect, I've been climbing in that area for 10 years, other officers of the ICA have been involved for over 30 years, and our "assumptions" are based on experience. Since when do intentions always match up with events as they actually occur? I have to operate under the worst-case-scenario assumption, and neither you nor anyone else can guarantee how cheap the talk of everyone on the thread and everyone who might attend may really be. What you or someone else may consider a small disturbance or disruption could easily have long profound implications for climbing in the area. Visiting climbers have a very small stake in the access issues and concerns about Jackson Falls, and in the relationships developed between local climbers, the ICA, and local, state and national land managers of the southern Illinois area.
Do you presume that I put a target on my back just for fun? Or, out of hubris? Don't you think that it would generally be beneficial for the ICA to welcome visitors and potential new donations, if that was our (my) main concern?
As for "not knowing... full intentions", you, too, are not fully informed of all the specifics about this event, apparently, nor about the local ordinances and permit requirements, much less access issues that affect the local area. You could have considered checking into that. My response can only be from what I've heard from Andy, and from what I read on this thread. What else would you suggest I use to assess your "intentions"?
If your sensibilities are offended, that's too bad. The bigger picture is more important than you, is more important than the feelings of all the people on the thread, is more important than this Beer Fest event.
If you want to climb in southern Illinois, your welcome; it's got some excellent climbing. This proposed event is not the best or most productive way to get to know what the area has to offer, nor is it the best way to experience climbing at Jackson Falls.
Feel free to move the Beer Fest to your backyard, to your favorite threatened crag, and then come back and criticize my assumptions.
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andy_lemon
May 6, 2003, 2:47 PM
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Reserved for Reply...
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mhr2000
May 6, 2003, 3:08 PM
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With all do respect. This doesn't sound like somebody to concerned.
In reply to: Alright, Andrew, it looks you and Shank really got something goin' with this party thang. I don't 'bout my schedule for that time, yet, but if I can catch up with you for a day or so while you're all down there, I surely will. I hope to have even more new routes for people to get on before June, too. They won't be in the present guidebook, obviously, so I'll keep you posted with PMs, and maybe you and Shank can be the resident guides extraordinaire for new routes in the climbing areas. So, is anybody in shape?
I'm curious as to what has changed your mind?
I don't consider this an organized "event" no matter how you look at it. Nobody is flipping the bill or hosting this thing. Permits? No I guess I wasn't aware that I needed a permit to climb there or sell a t-shirt over the internet for cost.
Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk or get away with something, but I'm not going to let an apple be called an orange.
I understand access issues and I appreciate the effort you people put into FS relations. I see nothing wrong with this small (yes 20 people is small) group of people getting together.
Also you need to consider that the majority of people attending are most likely people who would be there anyway because it's their regular climbing area. I could understand the concern if this was going to be dozens of new people on top of the regulars, but it's not.
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sidepull
May 6, 2003, 3:24 PM
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I agree with the views of the president of the ICA, however, out of curiousity, what were the results of the So Ill Showdown?
What was the impact?
Who won?
Will it happen again?
Are people angry?
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jds100
May 6, 2003, 3:46 PM
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I changed my mind as I watched the thread grow, and as I did some checking with the Shawnee NFS, something you could have done.
The matter of permits comes from emails I've exchanged with Andy, and from matter of alcohol in dry counties in Illinois, including taking $5 in compensation for the beer from people, particularly people who are under legal drinking age.
I certainly haven't gotten the impression that the majority of the people replying on this thread are "regulars" to the area. That doesn't quite jibe with the notion of people just needing to hook up with new partners 'cuz they live in places with not many other climbers. And, I've gotten emails letting me know that flyers are going up in climbing gyms in northern Illinois and Indiana, attracting people to the Fest who essentially no one "knows" (as if anyone on this site can really "know" someone else"). You can't realistically estimate a number for the attendees of this event, and you certainly can't presume to know how everyone is going to act. Also, if you're a "regular", let me ask you: what other nearby areas in southern Illinois might be a better alternative?
Jackson Falls does not enjoy the resources even of a state park. There are 3 or 4 officers to patrol the entirety of the Shawnee National Forest. Look on a map and see how much territory that covers. The resources for environmental management are no better than the resources for officer patrols. The ICA is working quietly with the NFS to address environmental issues in a way that is favorable to climbing interests. We have been thanked by NFS officials as being the most reasonable and cooperative user group that they hear from. They are extending us the opportunity to have a positive working relationship. Our relationship with them, for the larger interests of climbers over a longer period of time, is infinitely more important to me than your Beer Fest.
I appreciate your words of appreciation for our efforts, but I doubt that you fully understand the work and time involved, and the balancing act that's necessary. You do not have a clue to the frustration that's involved. Andy knows I just put a target on my back, by posting my position on this Fest. I think -I hope- he knows me well enough to know that I judge carefully and well, and come to my position not easily nor quickly. The fact is, I do know more about all the factors that need to be considered about this than you do. Take a breath and try to gain some perspective.
The So Ill Pulldown was held at the garage/ production facility of the artificial hold makers. Gosh, I guess you'd have to check with them for a damage report. You really should get you information straight. I guess if you were a regular you might have known that.
By the way, I PMd Andy with an alternative that I think would be a better site for the Fest. Hopefully, he'll consider it and put it on the thread.
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mr.shortround
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May 6, 2003, 4:07 PM
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I'll be the first to admit I originally thought this was a great idea, but I've been out of the Il. climbing scene for about a year now. (school) Is the access to JF still inflamed with the equestrian people? Are climbers still being threatened to be kicked out? Was the gear theft problem ever solved?
And what about parking down there? A year ago, the entire lot(if you want to call it that) was full of cars on any given weekend. This festival could bring in a lot of people, I know I'm thinking about going, and if I do, I'm bringing a couple of friends. How many others simply haven't replied to say that they are going?
What about cedars and Drapers bluff? are they more suited to this event??
jds100 do you have any suggested sites??
once again, I haven't been to So Ill for almost a year now, and I'm not too informed anymore, but this is just some ideas and comments.
-Stu
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mhr2000
May 6, 2003, 4:08 PM
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I'm sorry.... did you say we should have checked with the NFS in order to meet up with some people at JFalls? I didn't know that was a requirement for going there. There should really be some signs posted stating this "Access to JFalls requires everyone to contact NFS for permission. Any plans to meet other climbers or gather together in any sort of group will require permission as well".
I do understand the beer issue and I have no problem with calling that part off. I suspected all along the way over exaggerated beer theme was going to be trouble and that's exactly what has brought negative attention to this gathering.
If Andy comes up with a better solution, that's fine.
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jds100
May 6, 2003, 4:18 PM
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Yes, I think that Cedar Bluff would be a great alternative, with camping at Ferne Clyffe State Park. The State Park has amenities, including showers which would be very welcome in June.
Cedar Bluff is minutes away from the state park, and has the same qualiity of rock, is at least as tall, has a better range of difficulties, has sport+trad+bouldering, all with easier access, where people can be closer together and switch off routes and/or ropes quickly and easily. Almost all the routes are accessible for easy TR setup; access to the top is easy via a few different gulleys. There are easy trad and bolted routes to lead and TR, and hard routes to lead and TR. There are at least a couple of routes with fun expopsed hanging belays to start the second pitch.
The RC.com Routes database has a few of the routes listed, but not all. If people really want to climb and socialize, this would be a better alternative than Jackson Falls. The issues of environmental damage are less severe, in that the State Park (of which Cedar Bluff is a part) has more immediate resources to deal with it, and the ICA and climbers already have an ongoing relationship with the Park to help maintain the area periodically.
And, Matt R (mhr2000), the NFS requires permits for groups over a certain number. But, again, you seem to think that the numbers will not reach a level for that to matter. As I said, I looked at a worst-case-scenario, and checked with the NFS about what that number might be. No one "organizing" this event thought they needed to check on that or about the beer, apparently.
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mhr2000
May 6, 2003, 5:19 PM
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Cedars Bluff is fine by me. I've heard great things about the place.
And again, there wasn't anyone "organizing" or hosting this thing. It was merely a suggestion with a date picked. Before all this stuff happened the attitude was "Hey.. we are going to be here and if you want to show up great". This doesn't mean it's some organized event and this is why nobody even thought about contacting anyone.
Now, we are talking about where to have it and how to manage the people and it has become an organzied event. So now what?
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shank
May 6, 2003, 5:40 PM
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OH yeah that sounds great. I would much rather kill the ozone with a 20 min. drive both ways every day and pay to camp than to tear up those darn horse trail. :roll:
By the way anyone keeping score I was at Jfalls Sunday and didn't see anything but hoof prints.
In reply to: Risks include, but are not limited to, injury in a remote and difficult environment for rescue (I speak from experience); and conflict with other users of the area, likely with over-crowding.
I think I would rather be injured when there were people to help me out Than to be there with only my partner and still have the same problem.
And doesn't overcrowding mean too many people in not enough space?In reply to: Cedar Bluff is minutes away from the state park, and has the same qualiity of rock, is at least as tall, has a better range of difficulties, has sport+trad+bouldering, all with easier access, where people can be closer together and switch off routes and/or ropes quickly and easily.
Once again I am out until convinced otherwise. If anyone wants to climb shoot me a pm or an email.
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andy_lemon
May 6, 2003, 7:42 PM
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From an Impact Perspective:
There will be no more than 50 people coming to this event. There is 20 people on the list and if they "ALL" show up (which never happens) they would bring a max with them of 30 people. That is judging from what I've heard through private PM's with people traveling to come to Jackson Falls.
Moving to another location Jeff, is only going to lead our heards stampede through Southern Illinois. Moving our impact (as you call it) from one location to another, climbing at areas that are not accustomed to holding such a crowd. However, if we are at Jackson, an area that will already (guessing at the figures) have 50 climbers or so camping and climbing every weekend this summer, then the impact is minimal. You suggested that we goto Cedars and/or Ferne... Not only can both areas not accomadate 50 people wanting to get on a route but they are choss piles compared to Jackson. I would think that the SECOND FAVORITE place to climb would be Draper's Bluff. I don't know Eric so I don't want to put words into his mouth... but I can imagine what he would say to you if you called him up and said, "The 50 climbers are no longer going to Jackson. They are now coming to your place." If we are FORCED to move locations, I assure you, after our nice night for $7 at Ferne Cliff we will be heading straight to Drapers. Maybe this would be a great alternative... because now you've got 50 climbers donating money to climb in Eric's backyard.
To finish off my impact speech, I assure you "I will not take climbers who drive 300+ miles to climb in Southern Illinois to Ferne Cliff or Cedar Bluff".
The Permit Issue:
I take full responsabilty for the whole "permit issue" that now is... After the initial interest in the growth of the Fest I decided I would take it upon myself to collect donations for both rockclimbing.com & The Illinois Climber's Association. The funds collected would be split 50/50 and go towards things such as site upkeep for rc.com and bolt replacement for the ICA. Then it also accured to me that we would be charging non rc.com'ers $5 for keg beer that would go straight to the donations fund. Which isn't a bad deal... they would be drinking beer that I did buy that I didn't buy for everyone at Jackson.
So now, so now, nobody gets any donations... why you ask?! Because it will take an NFS permit for the exchange of money to take place at Jackson Falls. So now, I've got to go tell Trevor that there will be no income coming from this event and you will have to put the whole "bolt replacement project" on hold for at least another year or so. However, it will not take a NFS permit for me to go camping/climbing at Jackson Falls with my 50 friends.
I would also like to say that I am not giving up on obtaining a permit for the fest but if we do not recieve a permit the event will still go on, even if we have to be policed by the NFS.
In reply to: including taking $5 in compensation for the beer from people, particularly people who are under legal drinking age.
This ^here^ is a lame attempt to turn people off from our event. If you, Jeff, check the list of people attendind there isn't any underage people listed. So where the hell did you get your facts man? Your just trying to make us look bad. I assure you, that my beer will be protected by bodyguards Rusticus and Jake Harden... and there will be no underage drinking.
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tenn_dawg
May 6, 2003, 8:17 PM
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In reply to: Visiting climbers have a very small stake in the access issues and concerns about Jackson Falls, and in the relationships developed between local climbers, the ICA, and local, state and national land managers of the southern Illinois area.
This is the most Disgusting think I have ever heard a member of a climbing advocacy group say.
Are we not worthy of your precious crag. You have made it obvious that we are not welcome. Perhaps you have never had to face the idea of out of towners coming to your local crags. I have. And I have worked with the leadership of our climbing community to help minimize the issues that come with this increased popularity.
We have NEVER, NEVER told anyone they were UNWELCOME. To do so is a hideously disgusting act from someone in a position of leadership, and assumed authority in the climbing community.
You can attempt to flex the muscles of your mininscule assumed authority elsewhere. You are disgusting as "The president of the ICA" and if this is the trend on which our leaders are following then shame on all of us for casting judgement upon each other.
You would rather turn us away than work for a solution? Take your Nazi-esque mentality elsewhere. It is not welcome among climbers. Nor will it ever be.
In reply to: as President of the Illinois Climbers Association, I'm letting everyone know here that this gathering is not welcome at Jackson Falls
Disgusting.
Travis
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jds100
May 6, 2003, 11:13 PM
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Get a grip, Travis, I said the gathering was not welcome at Jackson because of the problems attendant to it, as evidenced from Andy's post above. He had told me that he was going to ask for donations for the ICA, for specific projects, and that he was going to ask for donations for RC.com. He said he was going to ask for money for beer from people (and at least one of the repliers to the original thread has said he's underaged; the risk of underage drinking at the Fest, is obvious), and that opens a Pandora's box of problems, arising one after the other, not the least of which is soliciting donations in the name of the ICA without the ICA authorizing it (as a registered non-profit organization, the ICA has to follow rules of accountability). I exchanged emails with Andy, attempting to clarify some concerns that the ICA has about the Fest, and suggested that he might want to contact the NFS to be clear about their policies. Among other things, he continued to escalate the rhetoric of how big a bash this was going to become. This was all before today.
Now he's making a statement that seems to suggest that he's intent on having this event despite any concerns about access issues about climbing at Jackson Falls. It sounds like, "I want my party! I don't care what happens afterwards!" It really sounds like he just wants to win an arguement, no matter what the arguement is about.
Travis, Andy's and other's posts have made it pretty clear that they don't care about access issues at Jackson Falls as much as they care about having a Beer Fest. At no time did I say that individual climbers are not welcome in southern Illinois. I specifically made the distinction, but you failed to discern it. The problem is the group gathering, as Andy has made it out to become. And, the ICA is not the only organization that has a problem with the gathering, and in fact, it's the NFS that has concerns about large group gatherings in general, so then it becomes a concern of ours.
As for impact, I've heard everything -just today- from 10 - 50 people coming to the event. As I explained about Ferne Clyffe State Park and Cedar Bluff, there are more resources to deal with whatever (if any) impact that groups have on the area, than is available to the Shawnee National Forest for Jackson Falls. I don't understand the logic of doubling the impact, in Andy's scenario of adding 50 more climbers to an area that is already heavily impacted. And, Cedar Bluff can certainly accomodate a large group of climbers; it does so frequently throughout the year, as does Ferne Clyffe, but I was mainly suggesting climbing at Cedar Bluff. I don't know how often Andy has been there, but to the extent that he seems to have taken on the mantle of speaking for the Fest goers, I'll address him by saying that I don't think he's been there, if he's criticizing Cedar Bluff as not worth the visit. By the way, In reply to: To finish off my impact speech, I assure you "I will not take climbers who drive 300+ miles to climb in Southern Illinois to Ferne Cliff or Cedar Bluff".
Shank, if you'd stop to think about what you're saying for a minute, you might see some of the answer in your own words. Horses? Yeah, there are horses, a lot of them, and they are a problem. The NFS knows that. The ICA knows that. How does increased climber impact, on the ever-more-denuded camping and parking area as well as the trails, help climbers image in the eyes of the NFS?
As for injury, I encourage to participate in carrying out the dead weight of an injured climber, up one of the access gulley/ scrambles, or over the broken rocky ground of the trails, and then try to get 'em to an ambulance that can't get very close to the scene. And, try to make an emergency call from Jackson Falls. Try taking part in some of the actual rescue requirements before you're so flippant about injuries and rescue at Jackson Falls. Again, the ICA is working here, too, but you'd rather be smug and selfish about your party; improving things for all climbers be damned, right?, becasue, "I want to have my party here!" Statistically, the more people you have, the greater the chance of injury to somebody, whether it involves alcohol or not. The majority of attendees could well end up being unknow to RC.com-ers, and, again there's no way to guarantee or predict the behavior and ability of everyone there.
My concerns are for the interests of climbing in Illinois, well beyond this event, and well beyond anyone's selfish desire for a beer party at a sensitvie crag. If someone wants to characterize Andy's motives differently, maybe I'll gain some understanding. But, I won't hold my breath.
And, Travis, I offered a good solution. You owe me an apology for referring to me as Nazi-esque. I'll compare rude behaviors with you any day, and lose to you every time.
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andy_lemon
May 6, 2003, 11:41 PM
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*yawn* like I've said before, your opinion and mine differ.
In reply to: I don't know how often Andy has been there, but to the extent that he seems to have taken on the mantle of speaking for the Fest goers, I'll address him by saying that I don't think he's been there, if he's criticizing Cedar Bluff as not worth the visit.
Yes Jeff, I've been there. Getting forgetful in your old age? I just sent you an email about it a couple months ago. So let me ask you this... if Cedar Bluff is sooo great, how come when people from New York, Michigan, Tennessee, Arkansas, etc. come down to go climbing I always run into them at Jackson, not Cedars? I tell them about their other options while they are here and their replies are usually the same, "Never heard of it".
Unless you've got a better alternative... can we have our thread back?
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jbur
May 7, 2003, 12:23 AM
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Cedar Bluff Rocks!
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tenn_dawg
May 7, 2003, 12:41 AM
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Jeff,
You said that you "don't give a damn" what out of towners think.
You assumed that we don't give a flying fart about your access issues.
You assumed that our gathering was nothing but trouble, and condoned it, and all of us.
From everything you have said, I can see nothing that you have done to help us. You went out and compiled a list of reasons we should stay away. You built up the authority of your organization by saying things like "The NPS says that we are the greatest thing since sliced bread..." And then immedieatly used that assumed authority to tell us we are not welcome.
And the alternative you offered? Sorry, you had never said in a public place what that alternative was. Except for the comment about moving the event to someone's backyard, I can only assume that Cedar Bluff was what you suggested to Andy. If this is so, then this suggestion reeks of the following senario-"We don't want you here. If you simply must have a gathering here, take it to the choss pile down the street. Then we've got nothing to loose." Perhaps I took a few liberties in reading between the lines, but this is exactly how it appears to me.
As the president of the organization that represents all Illinois climbers, and as an extention, all climbers that will ever climb in Illinois, you have done us all a great injustice. You made no attempt to work with us, to offer possible alternatives to our plans, or assist the organizers of this event in making this more "access friendly" for Southern Illinois climbing. You made no attempt to help us to make this a great introduction to Southern illinios climbing for anyone who wished to attend. You simply popped up and told us that we were not welcome, here's why, thank you have a nice day.
And beyond all is something a bit more abstract. This is what infuriates me beyond all else. Ever since the little bombshell you dropped, you have taken a "holier than thou" stance that is completely unbecoming one of our representatives. You have repeatedly said that you "don't give a damn", and "could care less" to members of our climbing community.
I stand behind everything I said to you in my prior post. I am absolutely infuriated by your actions as our leader, and representative. How dare your assumptions and lack of effort to help us. You appeared in this thread as nothing more than opposition to all of us, and then seem confused by our negative response.
In contrast, I have nothing but the highest respect for your position, the work it entails and the endless frustration that it contains. And in that light it is easy to see why you chose the path of telling us why we should not come, rather than working with us to determine how we should.
As our representative, and leader, however, it is your responsibility to do the latter. You put no target on your back by voicing you opinion here, you put the target on your back by saying, You can't have an event here and "too bad".
A better statement in my most humble and ignorant of opinions would have been to say. There is a problem with what is being planned, and here's what we should do to make it better.
But apparently you don't give a damn.
Travis
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allanange
May 7, 2003, 2:12 AM
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Jackson Falls is trashed. On any given weekend in the spring or fall the campsite is a ghetto. People leave draws hanging on routes and there is trash everywhere. It would be easy to just place the blame on the horseback riders but climbers share some of the responsibility. If you think that the USFS does not have internet access to see these posts then think again. I recommend that people start changing there attitude towards Jackson Falls and become a little more conservation minded otherwise I fear no one will be climbing there in the future. How can anyone possible think that a keg party at Jackson Falls is in anyway a good idea.
As for the Illinois Climbers Alliance, where do I sign up?
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mhr2000
May 7, 2003, 3:56 AM
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Once again... The F'in beer issue takes center stage. Sure the beer aspect has been hyped up and up and up, but it's still cheap talk if you ask me. I just seriously doubt anyone has the intentions of drinking and climbing drunk all day long. It's just something to do around the campfire in the evening. The possible under age drinking issue is total crap! How many parents you think camp with their kids and have beer on hand? How many other small groups have beer and underage kids around? I didn't realize somebody underage is breaking the law being within sight of beer, that's a new one to me.
Anyway, since I don't even drink I'll promise to be the chaperone :roll: :wink: and make sure everyone takes it easy.
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wonderbread
May 7, 2003, 4:54 AM
Post #21 of 21
(4252 views)
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Registered: Mar 13, 2002
Posts: 197
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You guys are missing the real issue here.
It's important that we climbers, as a user group of NFS land, do not use the land in order to maintain good standing with the NFS. Climbing may very well be shut down on this land if you climb there. We all must band together and refuse to climb at this location in order to keep it open. Nothing will close climbing areas faster than climbing.
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