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hayduke 8
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May 8, 2003, 6:40 PM
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I have a very serious concern that I would like some feedback on. Does anyone get pissed off that guide companies are exploiting the crags that you love for a profit? I hate to hike up to some classic climbs to see a large group of yuppies or boy scouts dangling from the numerous top ropes littering the area.
I know that people need to start somewhere, but dammit, take it in the gym for god’s sake. Once they have some common sense of climbing, then they could come outside to learn anchors and not just a weekend of getting a “rush” that they can tell their friends about. I hate those guides that take complete newbies climbing because those people are never gonna stay with climbing, they just have no outlet.
I feel that all guide companies should be charged based on a client bases, have very strict regulations (such as the areas they are allowed to climb at and when they can pick their noses), or they should all be sent to Iraq along with President Bush and Cheney.
We stand for what we stand on! – Ed Abbey
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wanlessrm
May 8, 2003, 6:57 PM
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It does suck to see twenty ropes hanging from your favorite climbing area. I have also ran into this at Devils Lake before, but when it happened to me I just moved to a different location. Write a letter to the guide service explaining you problem and offer some suggestions. With so little climbing in WI and lots of climbers this creates a problem. But often with guides you can beat them out in the morning and they usually leave early in the afternoon. Also the guides are taking up some of the easier routes so this might force you to climb at a higher level. We all start somewhere and atleast these people are getting proper instruction.
It sucks but its something we have to live with. If problems persist Devils lake might just close its doors to climbing.
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rockprodigy
May 8, 2003, 7:22 PM
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I kinda agree. If you're a guide who is doing this, you better be making massive contributions to the Access Fund and the ASCA.
If you ask me, we got plenty of climbers already, no need to be pumping out new ones.
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beyond_gravity
May 8, 2003, 10:16 PM
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Who are you to say who can climb and who can't?
You don't own the rock, neither do the guides. However, most guides and very active in local climbing (at least here) and spend much of there time (and pay checks) on replacing old bolts at belays, and bolting many new climbs. Chances are that your guidebook writer is also a mountain guide.
Most of us probably owe them.
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lexmark
May 8, 2003, 10:47 PM
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If you're having so much trouble with the guided groups out climbing, maybe you should learn to climb above 5.7 and move on to another route.
I would rather see 20 gumbies with a guide clustered on a couple easy climbs than have all of them on their own crowding up the rest of the crag.
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iamthewallress
May 8, 2003, 10:52 PM
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My experiences with guided gangropers has been mixed. At places like Yosemite or Josh, you know where to expect them and where not to go if running into them will get you all in a twist. There are plenty of other options, though they may still be crowded moderates, so it's not such a big deal.
The bad experiences that I've had have been at the local rock which mabye only has 5 routes on it anyway. If a guide has set up with a group of 10 to give a day long class, you pretty much need to gather your things and head to the gym. The same would be true though if you showed up and 10 non-guided people were there climbing, so I guess it's first come first serve.
However, I do think in the marginal situation where there is only going to be room for you if the guide is accomodating, it is a good opportunity for the guide to teach his/her clients about respecting other when gangroping.
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wallrat
May 8, 2003, 11:44 PM
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Isn't that one of the sucky things about America? I mean, like, people doin' what they want to, y'know? Like, it's like Freedom, or something dude.
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jhwnewengland
May 8, 2003, 11:53 PM
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If you maintain a friendly attitude, you can usually make something work. For example, if a guide has set up 5 TRs at a Rumney crag, and I want to climb something that isn't being used, usually just asking if I can pull the rope and set it up again gets me on the climb. Just remember that they were there first, and therefore have the right to deny you. It's not cool, but it is the general consensus of climbers all over.
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climbingjac
May 9, 2003, 12:10 AM
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I think that it is good that guiding companies are out there, making climbing accessible to cowboys that just want to have a go. At least it stops these people from trying to head out on their own, uneducated. Something that gets up my nose is visiting a crag and finding abseilers with their ropes hanging over all the starred routes. Surely their abseiling experience would be just the same, if abseiling past a route that has no stars? Opinions anyone?
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iamthewallress
May 9, 2003, 12:15 AM
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The scariest thing I ever saw at the crags may well have been the time at Mt. Diablo when a guy brought a group of first-timer friends "rappelling". He rigged them all up with biner brakes and they were going SWAT style (face first with the biner brake behind their back.) They were racing each other down, the one guy basically letting go of the rope and letting the friction of the unrestrained rope through the biner provide his only decelleration. :shock: And, yes, they were doing it over the popular climbing routes.
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tucsonalex
May 9, 2003, 12:20 AM
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Yeah it can be annoying, but the people are usually friendly and they have just as much right to be there. If they were there first I have no problem waiting my turn or finding somewhere else to climb. Also I find that people that go out climbing with a guided group usually look up to more experienced climbers at the crag. If you give them advice in a friendly constructive way about crag etiquette or whatever they usually listen.
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mdude
May 9, 2003, 12:26 AM
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Hayduke 8 and rock prodigy seem like some really hateful and selfish people. I am glad I don’t climb with them. The bigger concern in the climbing world is ignorant people like you.
Little do you know about business in the recreation world. Permits, government regulations, qualified outdoor leaders with skills, insurance premiums, and low profits. Guides love climbing so much that they want to work teaching others how to do it safe and fun along with the great stewardship for the land.
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flamer
May 9, 2003, 12:38 AM
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I agree with some of what has been said.
However, There is a difference between large guided parties and large numbers of climbers.
The difference is..Guide's are getting paid to "hog" routes.
Joe Blow who just plain gets there first has every right to climb the route all day...IMHO.
However a guide who hangs 10 top ropes all day and won't allow people to climb routes that aren't currently being climbed, does not have this right.
They have every right to be there with their clients, But need to respect others at the crag. On the same note, people need to respect the guide/clients.
The thing is There are some Guide's out there that think they "own" the rock's, This is just not the case. I have lot's of buddies who guide, and they are very good about this kind of thing.
But I've also run across guide's who are not. If I were to run into a stubborn guide who was Bogarting a route I really wanted to do(especially if they weren't using it) I would simply do the climb anyway.
A bigger issue is guide's Retro bolting routes to make it easier to take clients up. Crimison Crysalis comes to mind....
josh
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deleted
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May 9, 2003, 12:47 AM
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"Does anyone get pissed off that guide companies are exploiting the crags that you love for a profit?"
as the owner of a guiding service i find this question humorous. in america, the forest service and the blm, both charge guide services 3% of gross for the privilege of taking clients upon federal lands. in a business where the profit margin is very tight to begin with, 3% is a hefty cut. additionally -- and here's where it hits the bottom line the hardest -- we are required to maintain insurance in the amount of one million dollars.
"I hate to hike up to some classic climbs to see a large group of yuppies or boy scouts dangling from the numerous top ropes littering the area."
yuppies? you're making a very uneducated assumption about people you've just laid eyes upon. very closed-minded. and the scouts? they are a non-profit organization and are pretty much allowed to partake of our (and THEIR) public lands. also, if you believe in the premise that "numerous topropes" are "littering the area", it wouldn't take a 101 level student of logic to affirm that YOU and YOUR toprope are guilty as well.
"I know that people need to start somewhere, but dammit, take it in the gym for god’s sake."
who appointed YOU absolute ruler of the universe? did YOU drop out of your momma's womb crankin' 5.12 tweakers? besides (and, no offense intended) there ARE some of us LOOOONG time trad climbers who don't see what a gym has to do with climbing.
"Once they have some common sense of climbing, then they could come outside to learn anchors and not just a weekend of getting a “rush” that they can tell their friends about."
perhaps they could contact you so the can take the "common sense test". also, isn't that "rush" and the subsequent telling of the lies an integral part of the climbing experience?
"I hate those guides that take complete newbies climbing..."
well, we sure as hell don't get many chris sharmas lining up for lessons!
"because those people are never gonna stay with climbing, they just have no outlet."
assumptions and generalizations. they'll get you nowhere.
"I feel that all guide companies should be charged based on a client bases ..."
remember the 3% thing?
"have very strict regulations (such as the areas they are allowed to climb at and when they can pick their noses)"
what makes you thing we can just go anywhere? why not visit your local forest servece or blm office and find out just how many flaming hoops guide services have to jump through?
"...or they should all be sent to Iraq along with President Bush and Cheney."
too bad they didn't get themselves elected absolute rulers of the universe, huh?
please note: i do not intend for this post to be construed as inflamatory in any way. however, it is important to know the facts before speaking.
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renobdarb
May 9, 2003, 1:07 AM
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In reply to: If you're having so much trouble with the guided groups out climbing, maybe you should learn to climb above 5.7 and move on to another route. I would rather see 20 gumbies with a guide clustered on a couple easy climbs than have all of them on their own crowding up the rest of the crag.
I'm with lexmark. have you seen a bunch of "yuppies" climbing on a 5.10? or even a 5.9??? get over it. there's enough for everyone. get out of "beginner land" and i'm sure the crowds will diminish.
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extrememountaineer
May 9, 2003, 1:18 AM
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mtngeo has spoken...he is a wise man.
Continuing on the subject. I went up to my local crag(not necessarily my favorite, just the closest) to do some soloing and there were two guys there with a boatload of hardened looking characters. Instead of getting all pissed off, I started talking to the leader and found out they were a bunch of teenagers from a half-way house for troubled youth. I canned my climbing plans and helped coach some of the guys that were gettinmg elvislegs(soloed up alongside them and showed them where the holds were etc.) I also took a bunch of photos of them and sent them to the leaders later. It was cool seeing them doing something like climbing.
If it really bothers you, find another area to climb.
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petsfed
May 9, 2003, 1:28 AM
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Eventually you'll realize the futility of it and climb elsewhere. You'd think (with the way you people complain) that the only moderate route in Eldorado Canyon worth doing was the Bastille Crack. Become a conaisseur of obscure lines. How often do you get to say "I did such and such (a 5.7)" and all of your friends have never heard of it, much less climbed it. Off the top of my head I can think of 8 climbs between 5.5 and 5.8 at Vedauwoo that see very little traffic. Weird huh? And they are all classic. So what's the problem?
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mojorisin
May 9, 2003, 1:34 AM
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You have to have alot of respect for anyone who chooses to guide. Its not as easy as you think. If you get a good client it can be a great day. But its alot of work, and little pay. But people dont get into guiding for the money.
Most guides I know do alot for thier crags and most of them are on Mt. rescue.
The biggest problem with to many climbers is the marketing today. I have friends who own shops and they bitch about the crowds, but want to sell lots of gear. Well it only stands to reason that if some one lays out 1000.00 in new climbing toys they are going to want to use them.
We all were newbies at one time. Try the alpine stuff, not alot of crowds there. Multi pitch climbs keeps 50% of the people away. Or go at night.(just kidding),,well not really.
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coldclimb
May 9, 2003, 1:47 AM
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Wow..... troll?
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bandycoot
May 9, 2003, 3:16 AM
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I have to put in my thoughts on the "they got their first" attitude. This is a bullshit attitude when it comes to guides not using their ropes. If all their ropes are going, and I want to do a climb that's fine. If they have ropes hanging there that aren't being used they can kiss my blindingly white ass cause I'm gonna climb that route if I want. I don't think that I'd have even a smidgen of guilt climbing the route and pulling the rope if I have to since they are just wasting peoples' opportunities by leaving stuff on a route. If "first come first served" applies to routes not being used, should we go place a quickdraw on the first three or so sport routes we want to climb that day and telling people they are taken? I'll respect guides for the most part, but if they aren't using a route they have no "right"s to it.
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bagwhan
May 9, 2003, 3:29 AM
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As a newbie, I can say with honesty that people have to start somewhere. I was introduced to climbing as a "snot-nosed Boy Scout." I don't think that I would ever have become involved in climbing. Unless you want climbing to die out, I would suggest that you rescind your demands of "No new climbers." Just my 2¢.
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k9rocko
May 9, 2003, 3:35 AM
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Mtngeo has a good point when he calls our attention to the contributions made to the NPS, and to the general state of the climbing community. I have never used a guide, because I was blessed with the tutoring of experienced (dare I say senior) climbers.
All that aside, I have witnessed careless consumption of the crags by persons who represented themselves as Exum guides. I have also climbed the Grand while negotiating the herding of clients to the top.
Oddly, I experienced much more respect from the Teton Exum party. The clients and the guides were respectful. They didn't tell you to pass, but they didn't get nasty when a fast moving party scooted past (safely of course).
But, the guy who was hogging the first pitch of Pentapitch (Little Cottonwood, Utah) on a Sunday morning. He was a jerk, and many climbers expressed this. Eventually he yielded. I understand he was teaching a client to trad-lead on a classic 5.6 (can't fall out) finger crack..... but he was blocking access to many, many other classic routes by blocking the first pitch.
Bottom line, I have seen a guide driving his client to a near-death march on the descent, because he failed to evaluate his client's ability prior to a one day attempt on the Grand Teton. Meanwhile I saw the most respectable guide service take 20+ people to the top, in excellent style.
Where there is good, you cannot assume there is no bad.....
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crackaddict
May 9, 2003, 3:36 AM
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In reply to: beyond_gravity -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who are you to say who can climb and who can't?
He's right.
Early bird gets the worm is my philosophy. And is what it is in the climbing wolrd.
I agree that taking over a crag and not letting people climb routes is not cool.
But they are just trying to make a living doing what they like.
It's like when I went to do Royal Arches the first time in Yosemite. I got there at 6 am and there was a guided group of 6 spread out over the 1rst coulple pitches. This taught me I just had to get to the climbs earlier. And now it is my preference to get started early. I can also knock off about 6 climbs before the 1rst party even shows up to the crag in the morning.
Learn live and adapt!
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mhr2000
May 9, 2003, 4:28 AM
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Well, being a newbie I don't have the skill yet to climb hard routes so I'm going to be after the easier routes just like the guides are and if they have them all taken up that would suck. However, I will not hesitate to step in and let them know I want to climb a route. If they have many routes taken then letting me slide in on one shouldn't and probably won't be a problem. Hell, for me at this newbie stage it's actually welcomed to already have the TR setup.
I can only see experienced climbers being mad about this if they happen to bring newbie friends along.
Before I started climbing I hiked up to roadside in RRG and happened across a guide with a church youth group. They only had two easy routes taken up. I stood back and watched for quite awhile and at one point the guide saw my interest and offered me the use of a harness and shoes if I wanted to take a crack at it. I was tempted, but declined because I was ready to leave at that point to make sure I got the rest of my hiking in for the day. I suspect many guides are just as nice and sure there are a handfull of jerks, goes with anything you do these days.
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mountaindoc
May 9, 2003, 4:47 AM
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Is that what happened to Crimson? I was wondering why there were so many damn bolts on that route. I barely needed to place any pro for the first 5 pitches.
Anyways, having been on both sides of the fence, I have come to realize that guides are a necessary "evil". When I used to take noobs out for their first taste of real rock, we would hang lots of ropes, but the routes were all 5.8 and below, and if someone came along and asked to climb a route, we always abliged(sp). And when we took not so quite noobs on their first multipitch, we always left at 0'dark:30 to make sure we would be up high, or off the route before the crowds would show up to do the classics. And it these kinds of ethics that I admire and expect in a guide when I seen them with clients in the "wild".
However, I have come across those guides with less than admirable qualities, that get to the classics, like the Durrance route on Devil's Tower, just before everyone else, which there is not to much they can do about, since you can't enter the monument before a certain time, and "hog" the route for the entire day, dragging 4 clients up the route. One year I tried to climb this route 4 days in a row, and the same guide beat me there every day! Damn him! I still had fun though. Tons of routes there, just would have been nice to climb the classic. I tried to say something to him, but he just blew me off. I understand a guy's gotta make a buck, but that was ridiculous.
What gets me the most though, is companies like Exum that get special prevleges(sp). The Teton rangers, having very strict limits on backcountry permits, have denied me numerous times a permit to camp in Garnet canyon. So we stay low at the caves for a night then bump up the next day. Only to arrive to a group of 25 boyscouts in the morraine. And I find out that Exum does have a limit of permit numbers per day or week, but there is no limit on the size of the group. And on one occasion, my buddy and I did Exum direct, and when we got to Wallstreet, there were about 20 boyscouts gearing up to do the Upper Exum. Luckily we had just beat them! It is these exceptions to the rules that make things unpleasant sometimes.
Generally, guides and their clients can be a newsance(sp), but generally if you know what to expect, they can be avoided. And most of the time I find that they have high standards and carry themselves very professionally with the utmost of courtisey(sp). There are those that give the whole group a bad name though. And like many have said before in this thread, better they are with pro's than statistics.
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