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distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 feet?
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dig_scott


May 8, 2003, 7:07 PM
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distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 feet?
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i need to learn to aid and there really isnt any rocks to learn on around here, so i'm going to bolt a tree. i got the idea from http://www.rockclimbing.com/...1&highlight=aid+tree, but his topic was run down by so called tree huggers. if you guys want to steal my post, i own the tree, no one else can see it, well i don't own it but i do have custody.

my question is how far away should i place the bolts? tenn_dawg had 3.5 feet, but there are routes in zion that the guide book says the bolts are 6 feet apart. does this sound reasonable?


bigwalling


May 8, 2003, 8:02 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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All I can say is good luck! Unless you are pretty tall.


apollodorus


May 8, 2003, 8:06 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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The optimum spacing depends on how steep your "wall" is. On a 75 or 80 degree wall, six feet between bolts sounds about right. On a 110 degree overhang, 3.5 feet might be all you can reach.

It also depends on how tall you are. Warren Harding was only about 5'-6", and the bolt ladder on the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral can be Freedom Freed with just regular slings. Layton Kor was about 6'-3", and the Kor Roof on the South Face of the Column is notorious for being reachy.

Why don't you just lead up the tree on aid, placing the screws as far apart as you can?


styndall


May 8, 2003, 8:10 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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Warren Harding was only about 5'-6", and the bolt ladder on the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral can be Freedom Freed with just regular slings.


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ljthawk


May 8, 2003, 8:34 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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Bolt it on lead, stretching out the bolts as far as you can by high stepping.

L.J.


lambone


May 8, 2003, 9:52 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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nail trees, you suck...

But if you do, go with the last post...

Then go pound some nails in yourelf to see what it feels like...


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May 8, 2003, 10:51 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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If you hitch some or slings or rope around the tree, they should THEORETICALLY hold, if done properly.

But what's "properly?"


Partner chugach001


May 9, 2003, 8:58 AM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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I've got a 60' bolt line going up my neighbor's tree (with his approval) that I bolted on lead. I agree with above to bolt on lead. It eliminates guess work and gives you some flavor for the real thing. Yes, I am ashamed for bolting a tree.


hans


May 9, 2003, 1:30 PM
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Re: distance to place slings on practice aid tree route. [In reply to]
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I agree with Justin. It's your tree I guess, but style does count.

Maybe a Klemheist would do it? You can leapfrog slings, leaving enough behind to avoid a ground fall. It would probably be safer than screws, because you wouldn't need to worry about them pulling out. Plus, as you get better at topstepping, you'll be able to keep challenging yourself.


dig_scott


May 9, 2003, 6:50 PM
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nail trees, you suck...

But if you do, go with the last post...

Then go pound some nails in yourelf to see what it feels like...
i wasn't really cool about the idea when i first read about it either, but then i remembered i cut A LOT of wood to burn to stay warm during the winter.
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All I can say is good luck! Unless you are pretty tall.
thats what i thought too.


i might also use webbing instead,, but i doubt it.


tenn_dawg


May 9, 2003, 7:00 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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Well, here I am. The creator of the aid tree.

One piece of advice. Don't listen to the self richeous wannabee tree huggers. They are hypocrites.

And on to your question. If this is your first aid climb, then good luck getting those things spaced out 6 feet. My tree was vertical, and the best I could do from my third step was about 4' if I was reaching. Remember that you have to pound them in to get them started, and then screw them in the rest of the way. If you're making a long course like mine, then you're going to be up there for awhile.

I would really suggest putting in several of the bolts from your second steps, and really reaching high. Otherwise you will get bored with the basics after about a dozen trips up the tree.

Hell, if you can, why not topstep the bastards. By the time you bolt the whole route from the upper steps, you will be a pro at top stepping.

And finally. Don't ignore this. Wait at least 2 days after a rain to put in the lag bolts. The tree is saturated with water right after a rain, and you will not be able to get them to screw in without really tearing up the tree, AND they won't be very good placements.

Post some pictures when you're done! Good luck, be careful. It'd suck to die from falling out of a friggin tree!

Travis


apollodorus


May 9, 2003, 7:07 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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You could also mix up your placements by using 24d nails as "rivets". They would go in faster than screw-eyes. Pound them in until about 1/4" of the shaft protrudes so you can put a hanger on.


tori


May 9, 2003, 9:51 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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actually tree huggers are famous for putting nails and other hardware into trees to break sawblades at the mills. when workers were getting hurt badly and huggers started getting prosecuted they slowed down the practice a bit. so you could play mighty vegan and pretend you are making the tree safe because it will never become lumber if it is full of bolts. tree wins after all. :D


dymondbak37


May 9, 2003, 9:55 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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Ya know what, trees don't scream, trees don't complain. They get knocked down all the time. They grow back. It's just wood! Plant another one if you're so guilt stricken over it.


bigwalling


May 9, 2003, 10:17 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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Just nail a bunch of bird beaks in dude. It will give you the feel for hard aid.


apollodorus


May 10, 2003, 1:22 AM
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Yeah, "spiking" trees to defeat chainsaws was a big thing in the news a while back.

But, he's not spiking the tree to defeat the lumberjacks. He wants an aid line that will put sap all over his gear. And he'll probably pull the pieces when he's done. Right?

The screw-eyes can be unscrewed and the 24d nails can be pulled with a crowbar levered against a block of wood.

As far as using birdbeaks goes, that's a good way to learn A4, especially if the tree has thick bark. You could also pound KBs and LAs in, which I've done. It's difficult to get a hard aid pitch using the KB/LA method, though, because you won't have the discipline to drive them tips-only, then tie them off. It's too easy to whack them all the way in.

It's nearly impossible to clean KBs and LAs driven into most trees, though. As you hit them back and forth, they don't come out. It's worse than the the worst expando rock you've ever tried to clean. A better way is to use screw-eyes and big nails that have heads you can pull on with a crowbar.

And JFTR, a bunch of small holes in a tree is not going to injure it. The chance of some infection getting into the tiny holes is negligible. You have to "girdle" the tree by cutting all the way around it through the bark and sever the layer which provides access of water and nutrients from the soil upwards.


dig_scott


May 11, 2003, 6:02 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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well im done with my tree and 12 or 15 'placements' (cant remember which) im up to the near top. i used 5/16x3 lag bolts and eye hangers. im a little sketchy on them because i bounced on one and it wanted to come out, or started to bend a little. i think if i fall ill just zipper all the way down. my ankers are two 3/8x3 lag eye bolts about three inches apart with the rope just run through them, backed up with some webbing. im going to messure the distances and add some pics, but im around 5+ feet between each lag bolt/screw and washer. the bolts are a lot cheaper and easier to put in but i do not recomend them since upward pull can yank the protection off, which is a quickdraw without the top biner.


tenn_dawg


May 11, 2003, 9:34 PM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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I used 3/8ths by 3.5" if I recall, and they will hold a short fall. The 5/16ths I used up top were a little bit scarier, but I bounce tested the living bejeepers out of them, and they held.

You should place them so that the crack of the eye is facing UP. The lag bolt should come from the wood, then bend down, and up around the ring and the crack should be against the TOP of the bolt.

This way, if the eye starts to bend open, it will still hold through 180 degrees of bending. But then again mabey you shouldn't be wringing them around any more than is nessessary. Anyway, just be sure to stay off the tree after a big rain, and you should be alright.

Don't kill yourself with my idea, I'd feel bad.

Travis


brutusofwyde


May 12, 2003, 8:59 AM
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Re: distance to place bolts on practice aid tree route. 6 fe [In reply to]
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You have to "girdle" the tree by cutting all the way around it through the bark and sever the layer which provides access of water and nutrients from the soil upwards.

Cambium.

Manufacture of huge cams, I'm clueless. But vegetables, I know. Three of my personalities are vegetables!

Brutus


dig_scott


May 13, 2003, 7:10 AM
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I used 3/8ths by 3.5" if I recall, and they will hold a short fall. The 5/16ths I used up top were a little bit scarier, but I bounce tested the living bejeepers out of them, and they held.
i used 3/8 for my ancors that i have to add some webbing to because i just run the rope from one across to the other. there a pain to put in. 5/16 hold a bounce test, i just wasnt sure as how much of a fall they would hold.
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You should place them so that the crack of the eye is facing UP. The lag bolt should come from the wood, then bend down, and up around the ring and the crack should be against the TOP of the bolt.
yes, this is what i did and i screwed them in until the eye started to hit wood.


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