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holmeslovesguinness
Apr 28, 2003, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: To those people who say a grade is a grade, in sport climbing you get to greatly reduce the risk and effort involved in climbing into unknown territory, finding gear placements and placing the gear.
I think I said pretty much the same thing in my post - getting comfortable leading trad routes takes a lot more practice than leading sport. The moves are any harder, but there's more involved in the lead.
But people also make it sound like there is some magic formula to compare trad and sport grades - like a 5.11 trad route = 5.12 sport. This would imply that someone who is dialed into climbing 5.11 finger cracks is automatically going to waltz up to a super pumpy overhanging 5.12 limestone sport route and cruise it. Maybe, maybe not.
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curt
Apr 28, 2003, 5:28 PM
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Joe,
In reply to: you are skewing it the wrong way, I think; 12a sport is the equivalent of 11c trad, given equal ability at both, is what I said...I would also say that v3=12c, v7=13c, v11=14c...
Curt
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hyhuu
Apr 28, 2003, 5:29 PM
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The grade, by definition (the moves) should be the same no matter what. However, having said that, with 10-15 lbs of extra weight dangling on my harness, my arms and fingers get tired so much quicker on those long overhang. Strapping those weight on, I would not be able to redpoint many of the sport routes at my limit.
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mreardon
Apr 28, 2003, 5:55 PM
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Maypop said: "Hard (5.12 and up) cracks generally aren't hands sized, they're fingers or less, with less-than-bomber gear. So, yes, it generally requires some go-fer-it to climb one."
What crack are you smoking? There are plenty of 12 cracks with handjams (or have you never been to Indian Creek, Yosemite, Donner, and the entire states of Utah and Colorado?). I know there may not be a handjam in every 5.12 crack, but there are plenty of them. As for less-than-bomber gear - again, you obviously have never been on a classic 12 crack. Almost every 12 crack I've done or worked on has had great gear placements. Sure some of them suck, but you don't have to do those. "Espresso" (Bishop), "Monkey Paws" (5.12 Handjamming at Donner), and "Equinox" (Joshua Tree) are three 12 cracks that you could lead and place nuts every couple inches if you wanted to. Bring in cams and you can place even more gear.
And lastly, ratings do reflect gear placement in both sport and trad. They always have, they always will. In trad when someone gets a climb, it is followed with whether or not the gear was pre-placed. If it was pre-placed, everyone accepts that it was easier than rated. We just tend not to care in sport whether the clips were already there because it's so common it's assumed.
As for the endurance issues: Anyone who has climbed solid cracks and fallen repeatedly on gear knows that it takes much more endurance to find the right piece at the right placement (hopefully you won't need that piece later), place that piece (hopefully this is the best spot), then clip the rope and then move in a manner that hopefully won't cause the piece to walk and become unstable (did that piece just fall out?). In sport you pull a draw off, clip the pre-placed bolt, then clip the bolt. It gets even easier with the quickdraw already in place.
And gear weighs a whole lot more than a handful of draws. When doubling pitches on long trad runs, my harness weighs in at a whopping 20+ pounds (I'm only 140) and I still end up running it out between pieces (again, doubling pitches so it's not uncommon to climb a full 200+ feet and call it a pitch). In sport, I constantly see people taking their belay device off to go for a redpoint because apparently a few ounces will make or break that redpoint ascent. And you wouldn't want that device dangling around and possibly swinging you off! :lol:
To answer the question originally posed, I have no idea what equates to 5.12 sport in terms of trad, but like others have stated, when I go to an area to climb a trad 5.11 or above, I have yet to wait in line....
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camhead
Apr 28, 2003, 6:00 PM
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word, mreardon. You said it as concisely as it gets.
now get yer ass out to the creek in two weeks and work "Swedish Ringle" with me.
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bumpkin
Apr 28, 2003, 6:29 PM
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The original question:
What grade trade lead makes you cool? (Somewhat paraphrased)
Some dude yanking V whatever: cool, I couldn't do that.
Some chick dangling, working a 13a; whoa, that sh*t looks hard.
Some potsmoking hippie squirming up an 11 o/w: holy Crom, that's absurd!
Peter Croft soloing Astroman: RESPECT!
My dream is to lead mid 11 trad. Then I would be cool enough for me.
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mreardon
Apr 28, 2003, 6:45 PM
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I was going to tell you to get out here to Suicide and the Needles with me! Got the "Pirate" and "Romantic Warrior" on my mind.... :D
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camhead
Apr 28, 2003, 6:49 PM
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are the needles and suicide too hot by late june. I'll be in california around then. or is it all about the sierras and tuolomne by that point?
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curt
Apr 28, 2003, 9:26 PM
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Hey Mike and Paul,
I want to tag along for the "Pirate" at Suicide (if you don't mind) when you guys arrange something. I would love to get on that thing again.
Curt
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pbjosh
Apr 30, 2003, 12:41 AM
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Hey Mike,
If you lead Romantic Warrior I'll buy the beer - That route is absolutely gorgeous. I'll bring my jugs and beer money bro!
josh
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maypop
May 9, 2003, 4:12 PM
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Mreardon: If you -- or anyone -- is still reading this thread. I 've sent a couple of .12- cracks at Josh and the Creek. Got totally demolished on Equinox though -- it's freaking hard, even on TR! And it's fingers, not hands, like the majority of .12 cracks.
Sure, the gear is good on the classic .12 cracks that get climbed a lot, but as your post hints, there are way more scary, thin routes at this grade than gear-swallowing handcracks. Outside of classic crack areas like Josh, Creek, Yos and Zion, .12 cracks are generally thin and hard to protect -- come to Eldo and find me an easy-to-protect handcrack at .12 and I'll buy you a beer.
Finally, once and for all, the gear is not part of the grade. That's why redpoint ascents don't get a different numeric grade than onsight, placing gear. Is it harder to climb and place gear? Obviously the answer is yes. That's why redpoints with the gear in get described as such in the mags. But the grade does not change. A 5.12c crack is a 5.12c crack, no matter if you toprope it after a year-long siege or send it onsight. One is obviously a better accomplishment than the other, but the grade does not change.
I thought everyone knew that.
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aarong
May 9, 2003, 4:33 PM
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Depends...
For me I'd like to get to 5.13 trad.
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rrrADAM
May 9, 2003, 4:40 PM
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5.12 is 5.12 whether it's Sport or Trad, just like a .12 is a .12 whether it's TR or Sport.
Difference is you have to place all the pro.
I broke into the .12's on Sport last Summer, and have done. 10d's (in Yosemite) on Trad that feel just as hard physically, not technically, since I have to read the rock for placements, and place the pro.
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fieldmouse
May 9, 2003, 5:01 PM
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maybe instead of using numbers as a measurement of success, thereby mimicking capitalism and all of its evils, you should just push yourself to climb as hard as possible, all of the time, until you fall off.
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rockprodigy
May 9, 2003, 7:44 PM
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Do you guys know what a circle-jerk is?
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aimeerose
May 9, 2003, 8:25 PM
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5.12=5.12=5.12
And climbing 5.11 does not degenerate your body! It all depends on how well you train your body to accept the stresses placed upon it. Chris Sharma's body looks pretty non-degenerated to me and he probably doesn't even warm up on 5.11 cause they're too easy.
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crag
May 10, 2003, 6:59 PM
Post #92 of 98
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In reply to: Sport climbing seems to accept that you have pushed yourself to a very respectable level if you can climb 12's. So...what is that equivalent point for trad?
Not being b'nighted, it's a bummer when you're the last one back at the campsite and all the sport wennies have drunk all the beer.
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ptone
May 10, 2003, 9:12 PM
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Wow pages of pages.
Hope I'm not to late to join in--I'd like to hear people's ideas about this:
Grading:
Modern climbing seems to be starting to go past 'grading by move only' and into 'grading by overall difficulty'
For example, this new 5.15a in Spain is like sharma's piece--built from two climbs...in Spain it is la rambla, 5.14c + a 5.13d extension = 5.15a.
I think it takes more energy to place gear than to clip bolts, both mental and physical, even it the gear is easy to place cams or whatever.
Given this, the added effort involved in trad placement is equal to how much harder grading???
Sidebar:
Not for a second to dis Beth R, she's an awesome and committed climber who deserves every accolade she has received.
However, it seems to me climbing on placed gear is, well, SPORT CLIMBING. Leading trad to me means carrying and placing gear, that is part of what makes it so intense. I cannot send 5.13c (yet?) so I can only place an opinion. Am I missing something here?
Happy day all...
Peace
-p
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mreardon
May 12, 2003, 1:49 AM
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Curt - I'm off to Suicide the Friday/Saturday of Memorial Weekend. Be great to see you again! Also trying to convince Adam to get out there as well. He's due to get on Valhalla and pass the Stonemasters test! Mark is going for Insomnia, I'm checking the Pirate and Paisano, and hopefully one of us will be able to pull something. Otherwise we're off to conquer the 5.6s on the North Side :lol: Check out the West Coast forum regarding climbing in May or just PM me.
As for the one about weather at the Needles, yes it can be a bit warm on some of the outer climbs, but because of the altitude (7,500-8,000 feet) and constant wind in the main notch, heat isn't an issue. Plus you can chase shade pretty easily. Dome Rock can get a bit slick, but again, chase the shade. Tuolomne might still be the best bet depending on what you like.
And regarding Romantic Warrior, let's hope I don't need to borrow those ascenders! Got lots of work to do to get in shape in time! Now where'd I put that beer.... :lol:
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winkwinklambonini
May 12, 2003, 8:29 PM
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In reply to: Wow pages of pages. Hope I'm not to late to join in--I'd like to hear people's ideas about this: Grading: Modern climbing seems to be starting to go past 'grading by move only' and into 'grading by overall difficulty' For example, this new 5.15a in Spain is like sharma's piece--built from two climbs...in Spain it is la rambla, 5.14c + a 5.13d extension = 5.15a. I think it takes more energy to place gear than to clip bolts, both mental and physical, even it the gear is easy to place cams or whatever. Given this, the added effort involved in trad placement is equal to how much harder grading??? Sidebar: Not for a second to dis Beth R, she's an awesome and committed climber who deserves every accolade she has received. However, it seems to me climbing on placed gear is, well, SPORT CLIMBING. Leading trad to me means carrying and placing gear, that is part of what makes it so intense. I cannot send 5.13c (yet?) so I can only place an opinion. Am I missing something here? Happy day all... Peace -p
I think it's true about the grading thing, especially at indian creek. The incredible hand crack is by old school standards a pumpy 5.7
And about beth...she is sooo hot.............
.......oh...sorry. Anyway, some of the climbs she did with gear preplaced were thin cracks, so the gear effectively limits your options as far as hand and foot holds. (this is one of the reasons you should place at your waist.)
I do remember here doing something in Yosemite the right way, 13d or something.
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bumblie
May 13, 2003, 1:30 PM
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In reply to: Do you guys know what a circle-jerk is?
No, but I assume you do...
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abalch
Jul 29, 2003, 4:52 AM
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In reply to: With me I'm pretty darn comfortable with my trad placements yet sometimes I'll get skecthed out and not want to fall on it and back down or take for ever to get up a route, where as in sport it dont matter because I know that bolt will hold.
It amazes me how many people still feel like this--they are afraid to fall on gear they placed, but will trust a bolt that someone could have replaced yesterday, or it could be twenty, thirty years old. Do you really trust a bolt that you don't know the history of that much?! I scope every bolt as I clip it (when I clip bolts--I climb trad and sport equally). Still I have, or have seen friends who will pull a bolt out of the wall a good half inch when clipping it, and I settled on an anchor at the top of a climb recently, and bent one of the hangers (crappy old bolt hangers as anchors--I plan to replace them next time I am out at French's Dome).
Trust your gear!! I sometimes would rather trust to rappel off of one nut placed in a pin scar on a route than use the anchors at the top of a route.
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wallwombat
Jul 29, 2003, 5:58 AM
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I can lead 5.10 Trad but I cant touch 5.12 Sport. Might have something to do with me being a crap sport climber.
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