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dontfall
May 9, 2003, 5:47 PM
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In reply to: I'll give you a solution - WAR IS ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!
Okay, I'll bite. Name me a few examples of how this 'solution' has worked in the past. How exactly would the United States exist without war?
Thank you...
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hugepedro
May 9, 2003, 5:58 PM
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Have you people forgotten 9-11???
Don't you know, 9-11 means we must go to war against rogue nations??
9-11 = war. 9-11 = war.
See? It's simple. Your President understands it, so why can't you?
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extrememountaineer
May 9, 2003, 10:49 PM
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Skibabeage, you didn't understand my question. So let me rephrase it...How would the United States have come into being in the first place, i.e. the Revolutionary War, without war?
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one900johnnyk
May 9, 2003, 10:58 PM
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In reply to: India v Pakistan, a high-altitude war that's been going on for more than 20 years. Both countries have "weapons of mass destruction." Somewhere around a decade ago, during the Clinton presidency, things came to a nuclear stand-off between the two countries with war considered imminent. Then President Clinton stepped in and negotiated a peaceful, albeit temporarily, solution and both countries stood down. The only reason the negotations have now failed is that both countries are looking at the recent actions of the US and scratching their heads in amazement that we could be so hypocritical in preaching peace but not practicing it. How would the US exist without war? Probably quite well, but for the gun-toting, hate-filled cronies continually shouting "nuke the bastards."
this is funny to me because you are obviously clueless about the situation. actually. really funny. but to drag it out an to help me laugh a little more i want you to tell me what President Clinton did. not quite a decade ago, i think it was 1999 if anyone's confused. but one more time if you missed it:
In reply to: The only reason the negotations have now failed is that both countries are looking at the recent actions of the US and scratching their heads in amazement that we could be so hypocritical in preaching peace but not practicing it.
i mean... does the UN know about you, or what???! you're SO in
:roll:
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winkwinklambonini
May 10, 2003, 12:47 AM
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"The problem with freedom is that people are stupid and selfish."
-Me
Let's go back in time shall we...........
"Why can't all you minute men say something nice about British Rule?"
The idea that dissent is unpatriotic is as stupid and ignorant as anti-intellectualism. The very action of criticizing this country is excersising what is right about it.
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extrememountaineer
May 11, 2003, 5:44 AM
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"The idea that dissent is unpatriotic is as stupid and ignorant as anti-intellectualism. The very action of criticizing this country is excersising what is right about it."
Who said it was? Just say something positive about the country once ina while. Just because you have the right to dissent, doesn't mean you have to exercise it all the time.
I have no problem with dissent, but I do have a problem with whining and moaning about 100% of everything and never having any viable solutions. I don't understand why, if EVERYTHING sucks so bad, these people are still here. I swear, if I was as miserable as most liberals I know I would leave and go someplace better. Oh, can't do that, I am in the best country in the world. There is NO BETTER COUNTRY!
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extrememountaineer
May 11, 2003, 4:19 PM
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I dissent too. I think that George W. Bush has completely dropped the ball on repealing the draconian gun-control laws enacted during the Clintonista years. I also don't like some of the aspects of the Patriot Act. I am referring to people that do NOTHING BUT COMPLAIN about this country-those are the ones that I am inviting to leave. You all are putting words in my mouth by implying that I am against dissent.
Skibabeage...do you suppose negotiating with Hitler would have solved that problem? I see negotiation and playing "nice" with Stalin, Kruschev, and company did a lot to prevent the 20 million deaths they inflicted. I also noticed that Saddam continued torturing and killing his own people until we went over there and kicked his ass!
War is a necessary evil!
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hugepedro
May 11, 2003, 8:38 PM
Post #34 of 54
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In reply to: "I have no problem with dissent, but I do have a problem with whining and moaning about 100% of everything and never having any viable solutions. I don't understand why, if EVERYTHING sucks so bad, these people are still here. I swear, if I was as miserable as most liberals I know I would leave and go someplace better. Oh, can't do that, I am in the best country in the world. There is NO BETTER COUNTRY!
As if Conservatives never complain. Laughable.
Why complain? Um . . . duh, because some of us want to improve this country.
Just like a conservative, everything goes into nice, neat, little, generalized, black and white buckets. We whine about something, so that means we are complaining about 100% of everything. No solutions? Read any of my posts on the war, I offered solutions galore, as did plenty of others. What do you want a solution for? We've got plenty to offer. I suspect that you just don't want to LISTEN to our solutions. If you are truly interested hearing a solution from the other side, why don't you post a specific question and ask for the liberal viewpoint? Or, are you more interested in just being a Ditto-head, making trolling generalizations? "Oh, the Liberals, all they do is complain, and they offer no solutions. Waaaaaa. Why don't they just go somewhere else. Waaaaaa" Pathetic. Post something remotely challenging, that I might be insterested in debating, and you'll get an answer.
NO BETTER COUNTRY? On what basis? Transportation? Crime rate? Education? Health care? Free and independent press? Freedom of religion? Freedom of speech? You need to travel a little more, or if you do travel, take off your Ugly-American blinders and SEE what the heck is going on in other coutries. There are PLENTY of other countries who beat us in ALL the categories I listed above. Styndall pointed out one - Iceland. I love America, but I'm not so love-blind that I can't see her flaws and want to change them.
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extrememountaineer
May 11, 2003, 9:02 PM
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I don't see too many people beating down the doors to get out of the USA. Doesn't look like Iceland has much of an immigration problem either.
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mojorisin
May 11, 2003, 9:18 PM
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I could be happy here. However not for long could I survive without the comforts we as people are used to.
I think one900johnnyk and myself will move into the Kashmir and have a go at rebuilding a society without doors. That is the doors of perception that keep us so confined in our cotton wooly brains of infancy.
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billburning
May 12, 2003, 12:39 AM
Post #37 of 54
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In reply to: I am referring to people that do NOTHING BUT COMPLAIN about this country-those are the ones that I am inviting to leave.
First of all, YOU have no right to invite anybody to leave. That's as funny as your name "extrememountaineer". More like extreme douche-bag. You probably love that fatass rush limbaugh fool.
In reply to: Skibabeage...do you suppose negotiating with Hitler would have solved that problem? I see negotiation and playing "nice" with Stalin, Kruschev, and company did a lot to prevent the 20 million deaths they inflicted. I also noticed that Saddam continued torturing and killing his own people until we went over there and kicked his ass! War is a necessary evil!
That's funny because if you knew what you were talking about you would know that Stalin was our ally while millions of those people were dying. I would also like to point out that Saddam was our ally while we were funding Iraq during their war with Iran and the US government knew damn well that he was gassing the Kurds and perpetrating other atrocities while he was on the US payroll, but since he was working for us, he could do no bad. The military also did a GREAT job letting Saddam and his administration disappear without a trace. Oh yeah, and then stood by (violating the Geneva convention) while looters destroyed history. How many groups of Anti-American-occupation protestors got shot into by US soldiers? How many of these people died? And all those weapons of mass destruction they found, WOW. The saddest part is that the population is so apathetic they would rather vote for the next American Idol than the president. I'm sure impressed. This country IS great. Flame away...
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jaylaka
May 12, 2003, 12:55 AM
Post #38 of 54
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In reply to: Can you find it somewhere in your misguided, shallow, pathetic souls to say something good about the United States? Geez, you people do nothing but whine about how bad things are and you have no solutions!
nothing like an ignorant, biased question full of blatant stereotypes and generalities.
:roll:
what solutions have you offered lately that take into consideration anyone else's personal experience, relevant expertise, or differing point of view? or is that bubble that you live in rendering you blind and deaf?
and to answer your question: the u.s. allows people like you and me to coexist while wisely implementing laws to allow us freedom of speech while refusing us the right to use violence against one another.
and i have a lot of solutions. not only have you never asked, but i doubt you'd listen.
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extrememountaineer
May 12, 2003, 1:47 AM
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Okay, let me rephrase the question...how about solutions that have been proven to work? Kicking Saddam out has been working fairly well...
I have already admitted that my original post was a minor troll in how I worded it. You guys are sensitive.
Hey, Stalin and Saddam were allies when we needed them to be. They went astray and they became liabilities to us. Don't forget, it was a liberal Democratic congress that was in control all those years and if I remember correctly, without checking my notes, there were quite a few Democratic presidents in ofice during those years.
Back to the original question...I was referring to those that, awhh, the heck with it! Trying to explain myself to a liberal is like beating my head against a brick wall. By the way, is that all you can say about Rush Limbaugh is to call him names?
Hey billburning, where did your name come from if mine is so ridiculous? Having a bad hemhorroid day?
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wildtrail
May 12, 2003, 2:31 AM
Post #40 of 54
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In reply to: Can you find it somewhere in your misguided, shallow, pathetic souls to say something good about the United States? Geez, you people do nothing but whine about how bad things are and you have no solutions!
Sure, but at least we have something better to do than assume liberals hate this country and do nothing, but whine. Then again, you're whining about other's legitimate complaints, aren't you? Talk about shallow and pathetic. :roll:
A little "teapot" isn't it?
I'll always be liberal because I haven't bothered to close my mind and say that there is right and wrong when it comes to others concerns and opinions. We all have a legitimate gripe, but casting stones at someone because they have different idealisms, concerns, or opinions is shallow and pathetic.
Fact is:
This country sucks.
This country rocks.
This country sucks rocks and I love the hell out of it. I'd live nowhere else and I wouldn't want to complain or adore anyplace else. There isn't a country on Earth that is as shatty, confused, complicated, corrupted, or completely wonderful like the good ol' U.S. of A.
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wildtrail
May 12, 2003, 2:40 AM
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I initially responded to your first question only, as I did not read the entire thread.
You're last post you asked a good question. Other solutions? Sure...
Remember, these are my opinions, so don't tell me I'm "wrong".
#1 First of all, don't fix what isn't broken. What Saddam was doing wasn't affecting us (don't get ahead of yourself, let me explain---I'll get to it).
#2 Stay at home. We're constantly spreading ourselves (as in this government, etc) thin that we can't, or don't, fix the problems that lay in our laps, which leads to...
#3 Keep the dick in your pants. In other words, if we wouldn't have been, literally, f'ing with these countries for God only knows how long, maybe they wouldn't have been so pissed with us in the first place. You have to admit, the United States is a huge fan of OPP and constantly gets overly nosey and butts in.
Don't just lash out, I only placed my generalized versions of solutions I feel are better. Helping when asked is fine, forcing help is another story.
Either way, this is just how I feel, but in order for any of this to work on any kind of theoretical basis, we'd have to re-write history for a long, long way, wouldn't we? Right now? This is probably the best solution to the situation, even if it isn't "ideal". Then again, what is ideal? I don't think that exists. As a matter of fact, it doesn't. Ideal would assume the "all" would be in favor. ;)
So, why the hell are we arguing anyway? :?:
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extrememountaineer
May 12, 2003, 3:00 AM
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Steve, you are always wrong so I just ignore what you say. :lol:
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tenn_dawg
May 12, 2003, 4:07 AM
Post #43 of 54
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Skibbeage wrote:
In reply to: By the same token, to those of you so supportive of the current (and evidently ongoing) military action, why haven't you enlisted? Or is it just easier to sit in your armchairs and let others fight the good fight?
A bold statement. Before you become too arrogant in that accusation, let me remind you that just perhaps there are a few people who are out fighting for their country, and have made that sacrafice.
The problem with Liberal/Conservative arguments is that there is already a set standard of beliefs for both sides. There is no correct side of the fence for all arguments. I take an active interest in politics, and in political discussions, but I choose not to participate in elections.
I have strong consevative beliefs, but I disagree whole heartedly with many things this party supports. The same is true for the whole left side, but on a fundamental level, I can't identify with many liberal standards.
I am currently in Millitary training, and will soon be fighting for my country. I may not agree with the fight, but I have chosen to support my country, and all that it has given me.
I have been privelaged to visit many other countries, and see the alternatives. I have felt pride in what my people and my country as a whole have accomplished before I could even contribute. But every time I return home, I'm disgusted by the fanatical bantering that goes on in the political world. Mabey one day I will put in my opinion by running for public office. Until then however I choose not to vote.
I'm incredibly proud of my country, and I admire all of you who are willing to spend endless hours debating the ignorance of the other wing. Only with both wings can the eagle fly though, don't forget it. It's the disagreement that keeps us thinking, and keeps our government evolving. We'll never have it all figured out, and there will always be some civil disobedience (thank YOU Thomass Jefferson) but it's all for the greater good.
Don't start hating each other.
Travis
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billburning
May 12, 2003, 7:22 AM
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Alright tenn_dawg, word. Knoxville? My dad grew up in Dandridge, I've spent a lot of time in E. Tennesee. Love it. Anway, I am completely shithoused right now. But I am feeling the love between left and right tonite. Tonight I was at the bar. I saw my good friends ex-girl who is quite right wing. This has caused some conflicts in my relationship with her, but tonight we reconciled. And that was sweet. No doubt that I have, in the past, been a dick to her but I realize that at times I get overly passionate about politics and it obscures my version of reality. Like every human being I let things affect me personally, which I probably shouldn't. The truth is, we're all in this shit together, for better or for worse, and I feel that discourse is the most important part about being human. If we all believed the same things it would be boring as heaven. So lets continue arguing and I apologize (extrememountaineer) for making it personal. So lets keep arguing and climbing. Good Night.
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bumblie
May 12, 2003, 1:09 PM
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In reply to: As if Conservatives never complain. Laughable. Just like a conservative, everything goes into nice, neat, little, generalized, black and white buckets. We whine about something, so that means we are complaining about 100% of everything. No solutions? Read any of my posts on the war, I offered solutions galore, as did plenty of others. What do you want a solution for? We've got plenty to offer. I suspect that you just don't want to LISTEN to our solutions. If you are truly interested hearing a solution from the other side, why don't you post a specific question and ask for the liberal viewpoint? Or, are you more interested in just being a Ditto-head, making trolling generalizations? "Oh, the Liberals, all they do is complain, and they offer no solutions. Waaaaaa. Why don't they just go somewhere else. Waaaaaa" Pathetic. Post something remotely challenging, that I might be insterested in debating, and you'll get an answer. NO BETTER COUNTRY? On what basis? Transportation? Crime rate? Education? Health care? Free and independent press? Freedom of religion? Freedom of speech? You need to travel a little more, or if you do travel, take off your Ugly-American blinders and SEE what the heck is going on in other coutries. There are PLENTY of other countries who beat us in ALL the categories I listed above. Styndall pointed out one - Iceland. I love America, but I'm not so love-blind that I can't see her flaws and want to change them.
I used to think Fat Pete was a fairly levelheaded guy. I usually did not agree with what he said, but I respected the even handed style of his posts.
However, his last few posts lead me to believe that Huge Pedro is either Bi-Polar or a woman suffering from severe PMS.
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hugepedro
May 12, 2003, 3:18 PM
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In reply to: I used to think Fat Pete was a fairly levelheaded guy. I usually did not agree with what he said, but I respected the even handed style of his posts. However, his last few posts lead me to believe that Huge Pedro is either Bi-Polar or a woman suffering from severe PMS.
I'm not fat. Just Huge! There's a difference Bumblie. Get it straight for Pete's sake.
Care to elaborate? What part of my post do you disagree with? The part about Conservatives never complaining? Or the part about other countries doing some things better than this country? I'm all ears. Huge ears.
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hugepedro
May 12, 2003, 3:25 PM
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In reply to: I don't see too many people beating down the doors to get out of the USA. Doesn't look like Iceland has much of an immigration problem either.
Is this the best come back you have? Are you saying that you judge the greatness of a country based on immigration statistics? You do, of course, realize that there are many factors that affect immigration numbers, don't you?
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bumblie
May 12, 2003, 3:48 PM
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The fact that the USA has the highest immigration and the highest demand for immigration of any country on the planet is pretty compelling. Obviously, this is the place people want to live.
What part of this don't you understand?
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madriver
May 12, 2003, 4:07 PM
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PROPS!!!!!
Tenn_Dawg and BillBurning....
Major PROPS!!!!!!!111111
Peace
MR
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hugepedro
May 12, 2003, 6:21 PM
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In reply to: The fact that the USA has the highest immigration and the highest demand for immigration of any country on the planet is pretty compelling. Obviously, this is the place people want to live. What part of this don't you understand?
Bumbles, Bumbles, Bumbles, if you're going to use a condescending tone, you ought to at least think through your argument before you post it.
The fact that the USA has the highest immigration and the highest demand for immigration of any country on the planet (I'll accept your claim without data to prove it, even though if you look at immigration rates, as opposed to volumes, we are not the tops) means that CERTAIN people from CERTAIN places want to live here, not that this is THE place where PEOPLE want to live. Not to mention the fact that we have different immigration laws than many countries. We ALLOW more immigration than most other developed countries. Not to mention the affect that organic population growth of the immigrator's country of origin has on motivation for migration. (Population growth is highest in lesser developed countries. People from those countries migrate to more develop countries if they can. Where do you think North Africans go? Most of them go to Europe - because they can. Very few of them come to the US.)
According to the 2000 Census statistics, 51% of US immigrants came from Latin America, 26% from Asia. Hmmm, let's see, what country do we share a border with that has a lower quality of life than ours? Of course people want to come from those regions, and of course they do come because they CAN, because we LET them. But that is no evidence upon which to argue that the USA this the GREATEST. That is an absurd and baseless claim.
No doubt, the USA is a great country, greater than many, and there are many other countries where people would rather live in the US. Does that mean we are THE greatest, as was Jody's preposterous claim? I asked him on what basis he thinks we are the greatest, I even gave him specific categories of measure (transportation, education, blah, blah, blah), and all I got back was a silly, Limbaughian platitude. I'll say it again, there are PLENTY of countries that kick our butts by all sorts of quality of life measures (how about life expectancy - check up on that one and tell me what you find).
You and extremeJody are saying, "golly, people are coming here, this must be the greatest place on earth." By that reasoning I ought to never leave Texas. MAYBE, if more Americans would dispose of their "we're the best" arrogance, we might learn something from other countries and actually make this great country even greater. Just a thought.
Is there any part of what I just wrote that YOU don't understand?
Peter
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