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rockhound71
May 8, 2003, 10:08 PM
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I've been climbing for a little over two years now, and luckily I have not seriously injured myself doing anything crazy. Last night in the gym, I was leading an 11a. I had reached the third draw, but I was in a bad position to clip, so I fell. I figured this won't be bad, it's only a 10-15 foot fall. I've taken worse. At the end of my fall, I suddenly slam into wall (which was shorter than I thought), a blooming pain flaring from my lower back :shock: ! Initially, I thought I had broken my back. As I hung there, howling in pain, I realized what had happened. My partner thought he had enough slack out so when I fell, I got yanked like I was on a static rope, in effect hyperextending my back (not fun!). Plus he did not jump at the end of my fall giving me a dynamic belay. My partner felt really bad about, but I don't hold it against him. Stack it up to a learning experience (shit happens). My trust is shaken a bit, but I'll get over it. I just wanted to let beginning climbers know, and also experienced climbers, how important belaying is. As a climber you take risks, but you also take risks as a belayer: If I have too much slack out, will the leader hit the ground if he/she falls? Is the runout so long that if the leader falls, will I have to run to catch his/ her fall? Or in my case, is there enough slack out to keep the leader from slamming into the wall or hurting his/her back? You also need to account for the weights of the climber and belayer. Does the belayer weight more than the climber? If so, a dynamic belay would be necessary in my opinion. If I can prevent this incident from happening to someone else, or a more serious injury, then I will have done my job. Climb (and belay) safe, brothers and sister!
Casey
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w6jxm
May 8, 2003, 11:25 PM
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In reply to: My partner thought he had enough slack out so when I fell, I got yanked like I was on a static rope, in effect hyperextending my back (not fun!).
I think your points about belayers needing to be competant at what they do, but I don't get what you are trying to say caused the accident. There are many gyms where you have to anchor yourself and the grigri to a daisy in the floor. In that case there is no way to give a dynamic belay. Besides, (correct me if i'm wrong) who gives purposeful dynamic belays in a gym anyway? I know I don't. Most of the time it is not neccessary. Most gyms have the draws so close together you could almost skip three of them and still be alright.
I am just thinking here. It could also have been the gyms fault. maybe the ropes were not to spec. I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out how you hurt yourself in a gym if you were not doing something stupid.
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jt512
May 9, 2003, 1:15 AM
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In reply to: Does the belayer weight more than the climber? If so, a dynamic belay would be necessary in my opinion.
In my opinion, too. It's we light climbers who get slammed into the wall by too-static belays. Heavy climbers will tend to pull their belayer off the ground and get a soft catch as a result.
I've really gotten to the point where I won't lead climb unless I know my partner can dynamically belay. Unless I know someone to be an expert sport climber, I'll rarely let them belay me on a route where I might fall, unless I've trained them myself to dynamically belay.
In reply to: There are many gyms where you have to anchor yourself and the grigri to a daisy in the floor. In that case there is no way to give a dynamic belay.
Unless the leader substantially outweighs the belayer, and assuming the belayer is skilled, it would be safer to have the belayer unanchored in the gym, so he can belay dynamically. The best you could do with a girgri, if anchoring was mandated, would be to leave some slack in the anchor, in order to permit the belayer to give a dynamic belay. I'd actually think twice about leading in a gym where anchoring and a gri-gri were required.
In reply to: Besides, (correct me if i'm wrong) who gives purposeful dynamic belays in a gym anyway?
Skilled belayers. Consider yourself corrected.
In reply to: I know I don't. Most of the time it is not neccessary.
Most of the time it is unnecessary only in the sense that it is a miracle that a leader can slam so hard into a wall and not be injured. On the other hand, getting slammed into the wall by a too-static belay, besides being unpleasant, is a common cause of fractures, which could be avoided by proper dynamic belaying.
In reply to: Most gyms have the draws so close together you could almost skip three of them and still be alright.
The closeness of the draws is not much of an advantage, and may even be a disadvantage if the belay is too tight. Falling from a short distance above the bolt with tension in the rope can slam you into the wall with fearsome force. The path your body follows in the fall is an arc with a short radius. This equates to high acceleration, which smashes you into the wall.
In reply to: I'm just trying to figure out how you hurt yourself in a gym if you were not doing something stupid.
He explained it. He took a short fall with too static a belay, and got slammed into the wall. He was lucky he didn't leave the gym in an ambulance.
-Jay
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elvislegs
May 9, 2003, 1:29 AM
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Yeesh! Jay, is there smoke coming off of your quote button?
I think we can put this one to bed. Unless anyone else needs schooling tonight.
jt512 "the fastest quote in the west"
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ikefromla
May 10, 2003, 5:08 AM
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riiight. so if there were any questions, jay was right. and it SUCKS to get slammed into the rock by a shitty belay.
peace,
ike
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redpoint73
May 10, 2003, 1:30 PM
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I'm not so convinced that the back injury resulted from the "static" belay. Don't get me wrong, from the description that was given, it sounded like a more dynamic belay would have been a benefit. But the static belay/slamming into the wall scenario seems like it would more likely result in bruised heels, twisted ankles, etc. Back injuries during whippers usually seem to happen more commonly when the climber does not keep his/her center of gravity over the harness, so the waistbelt catches the fall, instead of the leg loops (which usually bear most fo the impact). This most commmoly happens if the climber tips sideways or back as he comes off the wall.
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dentmanrulez
May 10, 2003, 1:51 PM
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I think this guy is full of it!
I think he fell wrong and is looking to blame someone else. At length even.
RF
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jt512
May 12, 2003, 4:32 AM
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In reply to: I think this guy is full of it! I think he fell wrong and is looking to blame someone else. At length even. RF
And your opinion is based on what? According to your profile, you don't lead climb.
-Jay
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taraus_de_bull
May 12, 2003, 5:18 AM
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can you explain a dynamic belay, i think i know what you talking about but could you explain to make sure.
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puma
May 12, 2003, 6:20 AM
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The climber that got hurt, you have no one to blame but yourself. If you wish to blame anyone that is. Was this the first time that belayer was belaying you? Probably not. And since it wasn't, you should already know how he belays you. Very commonly, I see belayers not giving enough rope out. So you should have already picked up on this. So I say, "Leaders Beware!"
As a guide, I commonly will climb with people that are belaying me for the first time. I instruct, etc. and if I'm comfortable that the person can handle the task, we rope up. As I take off, I nonchalantly look down and see that they are belaying correctly. Get to the first piece, clip, and peer down again, usually if something needs to be corrected I'll say something and keep on going. So, all in all, it's MY awareness that will maintain a safe belay. Yet, even with partners I do a stealth check to make sure everything is to my liking.
Also: a dynamic belay is a "slipping" in the brake system. It can be at the belay device, purposely holding the brake half-3/4 of the way down before locking off entirely. This can benefit a leader that only has a mediocre piece of pro. or a nice rusty quarter, in a fall. It can benefit climbers at a belay to keep forces down. It can be in the gym with the belayer locking off and flying into the air. However, it can also be a hazard and mean the difference between a broken ankle or not. Usually experienced climbers will know what's needed and will communicate with their partner what to expect.
Lg
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rockhound71
May 12, 2003, 10:17 PM
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I thought I explained the situation the best I could (with Jay's help), but I guess not. First, I do not blame my climbing partner for what happened!!! I have climbed with him for almost my entire climbing experience and this is the first time something like this has happened (shit happens). Secondly, you're right Puma, it was partly my fault. I climbed the route this weekend and found that I could have clipped from a hold far to the right of the bolt instead of getting myself into a lousy clipping position. Thirdly, Redpoint73, my knees hurt almost as much as my back! My feet were slightly out to keep me from the wall in case I swung into it, but they weren't braced for a hard slam! And finally, Dentmanrulez, get some lead experience before you judge anyone. I put my experience out there to prevent this from happening to anyone else; I didn't think people were so sensative to take it as an accusation or as an open forum for bashing.
Casey
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jt512
May 13, 2003, 5:28 PM
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In reply to: My feet were slightly out to keep me from the wall in case I swung into it, but they weren't braced for a hard slam!
Be careful about using your feet to "brace yourself" when you fall. It is a common mistake to tense the legs in a fall and try to use them like stiff springs. The correct way is to hit the wall feet first with the knees and hips relaxed so that they bend and absorb the impact. If you hit the wall hard you should end up in a full crouched position. Drop a cat from a good height and watch how it lands.
-Jay
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neadamthal
May 13, 2003, 5:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think this guy is full of it! I think he fell wrong and is looking to blame someone else. At length even RF And your opinion is based on what? According to your profile, you don't lead climb -Jay
giver Jay. you tell em! ;)
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traddad
May 13, 2003, 6:39 PM
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OK....
I have NO idea what REALLY happened, but I have taken dozens of whippers in the gym and have never felt that the catch was terrible. Yes we used Gri Gris. Yes, the belayer tied into the floor...I’ve taken long ones, short ones......whippers with a lot of rope out and with very little. I will have to say that I almost always outweigh my belayer but methinks there is more to this story than a dynamic belay, which I believe is the rope’s job anyway. (So flame me)
Sorry, I don’t want my belayer to concentrate on anything other than catching and holding me. The former entails locking off and the latter entails staying on their feet, conscious and paying attention to where they are going to fly when I hit the end of the rope. It is my job to fall correctly, be in good shape, especially my core muscles AND to make sure my harness fits me and is on correctly. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen some young hip-hop wannabe wearing the waist belt of his harness around his ass like a pair of those asinine baggy sk8er pants.
For a while, I was flipping upside down when I fell. I finally connected the dots and realized that at 6'5", I was well above the design criteria for the harness I was wearing. My center of gravity was above my tie in point! I switched to a women’s harness with a longer rise and the problem was solved immediately!
In short, there are many things besides your belayer that could account for your back problem, not the least of which might be lack of core strength. Timing a jump just for the instant you hit the end of the rope seems to be a bit too much to ask your belayer when they have enough to think about already.
Just my opinion.
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burz
May 13, 2003, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: Drop a cat from a good height and watch how it lands.
Would say, a 100 ft do the trick?
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jt512
May 13, 2003, 6:55 PM
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In reply to: I will have to say that I almost always outweigh my belayer but methinks there is more to this story than a dynamic belay, which I believe is the rope’s job anyway. (So flame me)
Your belief is wrong. Ropes aren't dynamic enough to keep keep you from slamming into a wall. That's the belayer's job.
In reply to: Sorry, I don’t want my belayer to concentrate on anything other than catching and holding me. The former entails locking off and the latter entails staying on their feet, conscious and paying attention to where they are going to fly when I hit the end of the rope.
If they are "flying" then you are getting a dynamic belay.
I hate to say it, but I run into your attitude all the time from heavier climbers. You guys don't get slammed into the wall because you outweigh your partners and pull them off their feet when you fall. You thus always get a soft catch. Unfortunately, you don't realize that this is due to your being heavier than your belayer. You think, "I get a soft catch without my partner jumping, therefore he'll get a soft catch without me jumping" -- and you're wrong, he won't. If you outweigh your partner you need to consciously give him a dynamic catch -- jump! Otherwise, you slam him into the wall.
In reply to: It is my job to fall correctly, be in good shape, especially my core muscles...
Core muscles? Your core muscles are going to keep you from breaking your ankle?
In reply to: Timing a jump just for the instant you hit the end of the rope seems to be a bit too much to ask your belayer when they have enough to think about already.
Baloney. It should be required, and you won't be belaying me until you can master the technique. Like Curt said, it's too bad we don't rate belayers like we do routes. Until you can dynamically belay, you're a 5.5 belayer.
-Jay
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traddad
May 13, 2003, 7:15 PM
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Fastest quote in the west...(or east?).
Hmm....Didn't I say my belayer was always tied in? I thought I did, but I could have been mistaken.....The point is, the three inches or so of slack before a spectra daisy connected to a gri gri and the floor arests me doesn't constitute a whole lotta dynamism for a belay. As for ankles, my worst ankle injuries were from rope stretch letting me hit the ground and after a 25 foot fall with a LOT of rope out where, lo and behold, I slammed into the wall! The catch was way soft, though..... Not much is going to keep you from slamming the wall if the physics are funky. What will help you is good body position and attention to the fall on the part of the leader.
And how are core muscles going to prevent an ankle injury? I have no idea, I assumed we were talking about a back injury.
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gthornberg
May 13, 2003, 7:51 PM
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I've been climbing now for 20 years and have seen my share of falls. What I find most peculiar is how a dynamic belay would cause you to slam into the wall. Motion towards the wall is increased by two factors
1) How far away you are from the wall
2) How statically the line is being held
Notice the following image I created to illustrate my point
http://www.4penny.net/greg/falling.gif
A dynamic belay would cause the climber to impact the wall less directly thereby reducing the impact.
Greg (greg@claimtraq.com)
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ubotch
May 13, 2003, 7:57 PM
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Nice illustration, I wasn't quite getting it before that.
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z0mb1e
May 13, 2003, 8:12 PM
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gthornberg don't you fall farther in the second case thus causing you to be going faster?
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gthornberg
May 13, 2003, 8:30 PM
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Not really, because the dynamic belay is already slowing your descent at the same time extending it. There is no additional acceleration that occurs, just a ever so slightly prolonged deceleration.
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jt512
May 13, 2003, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: ...The point is, the three inches or so of slack before a spectra daisy connected to a gri gri and the floor arests me doesn't constitute a whole lotta dynamism for a belay.
Right. And that is precisely the argument against anchoring the belayer when he is on safe ground.
In reply to: As for ankles, my worst ankle injuries were from ... and after a 25 foot fall with a LOT of rope out where, lo and behold, I slammed into the wall!
If you slammed into the wall, you weren't getting a correct dynamic belay, there was insufficient slack in the rope, or both, unless the belayer was forced to keep the belay tight to keep you from grounding. I'm having difficulty understanding why, after having been injured as a result of too static a belay, you are arguing against its importance.
In reply to: The catch was way soft, though.....
"Soft catch" cotradicts "slammed into the wall."
In reply to: Not much is going to keep you from slamming the wall if the physics are funky.
No, a dynamic belay changes the physics. See the cool illustration by gthornberg.
In reply to: What will help you is good body position and attention to the fall on the part of the leader.
Attention to the fall by the leader is important, but I've been in the position of attentively watching in horror as the wall rushed toward me, thinking, "gee, I wonder how much this is going to hurt."
-Jay
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jt512
May 13, 2003, 9:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Drop a cat from a good height and watch how it lands. Would say, a 100 ft do the trick?
Like everything in climbing, it depends. The right-sized dead cat can make for a mighty nice piece of off-width pro.
-Jay
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rockhound71
May 13, 2003, 10:02 PM
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Damn, Jay! If you ever need a belay, let me know. You can back me anytime! Even though I/we are trying to prevent this from happening to others, I don't think anyone will understand until they go through the pain themselves. Unfortunately, sometimes the best way to learn, is the hard way!
Casey
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timstich
May 13, 2003, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Drop a cat from a good height and watch how it lands. Would say, a 100 ft do the trick? Like everything in climbing, it depends. The right-sized dead cat can make for a mighty nice piece of off-width pro. -Jay
Please demonstrate that when you get a chance.
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