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eminem
May 13, 2003, 3:59 AM
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What's the deal with people claiming they have climbed routes that they haven't? Climbers have started to rap before the end of the route, skip pitches via others fixed lines or as in the case of Zodiac the BLD start-which is not the route-skipping the crux, and not leading 1/2 the route. If I climb the first pitch of tempest can I claim that I climbed the route? What if I jug the entire thing?
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kalcario
May 13, 2003, 4:08 AM
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How about claiming to be a climber when all you ever do is boulder? At least the aid climbers are getting up stuff, even if they are drinking 40's at the belays and regard actually touching the rock as poor technique...
oh yeah, "sheesh".
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mesomorf
May 13, 2003, 4:28 AM
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What does BLD stand for?
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curt
May 13, 2003, 4:30 AM
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How about claiming to be a climber when all you ever do is sport climb? At least the aid climbers are getting up stuff, even if they are drinking 40's at the belays and regard actually touching the rock as poor technique...
oh yeah, "sheesh".
At least boulderers start at the bottom and end up on top--fer chrissakes. i.e "climb"--meaning to ascend something.
Curt
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curt
May 13, 2003, 4:38 AM
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OK, now after having a bit of fun with Joe--my more serious answer.
This aspect of climbing falls into a real "gray" area. For example, when Todd Skinner and Paul Piana claimed the first free ascent of the Salathe wall, the said that every pitch was led free by one of them--and the other jumared. And, Todd is a friend of mine--so don't give me crap about bashing these guys for what I am saying here. It is merely an example.
Is this a free ascent? I don't know--maybe. Each pitch was led free, but did either of the two climbers do a "free ascent" of the route? What if it was a 2 pitch route. If climber "A" led the first pitch free, and climber "B" jumared and then climber "B" led the second pitch free and climber "A" jumared--is this a free ascent by the party? I'm not sure myself.
Curt
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copperhead
May 13, 2003, 5:34 AM
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In reply to: What does BLD stand for?
BL Direct. The speed variation – fixed jive, nothing special.
It actually has a name - Waiting for the Sun. Dec. '93
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alpinelynx
May 13, 2003, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: BL Direct. The speed variation – fixed jive, nothing special.
you are too humble.
I interpret the original question as more like 2... Why do people lie and what style/ethic counts as a 'real' ascent. Personally, I don't claim to have done things I haven't, and am straight forward about what I've done. I got ON a wall, didn't finish, ohwell. didn't really intend to. Did I lead any? nope, but its still work that contributes to upward progress. I don't like to lie about it. As far as the style/ethic, well, I pretty much suck still and so I could really care less about it (to a point - not destructive)
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iamthewallress
May 14, 2003, 12:49 AM
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One night a friend of mine did this impression of Mr Way on a tirade about the popular but non-original finish to the Rostrum. He pulled his head back, shrugged up his shoulders, waved his hands in the air, puckered up his lips, and exclaimed in an constipated voice full of outrage, "That is not a route! That is not anything!" I laughed so hard.
I guess I find that urge to take apart someone else's experience more unethical/immoral than I do someone claiming an ascent of the Zodiac after toiling for many long days to the summit of that route, having opted to use the BLD start on pitch one.
Not everyone is constantly worried about evaluating themselves or others, so sometimes numbers, styles, etc. get left out of the story because it's not super relevant to the experience that they are trying to share with you. Not every story is intended to establish someone's place on the mystical ladder of hardman worthiness. Not every accomplishment is shared to undercut your own experience on the same climb.
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passthepitonspete
May 14, 2003, 1:33 AM
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OK, so fill me in on this thing.
You're talking about the supposedly alternate start to Zodiac you're calling BLD?
The way I climbed Zodiac was to climb the corner on the left up to the roof, and belay there for pitch 1, then pitch 2 traverses across beneath the roof, then up to the second belay.
Are you talking about the direct line that goes more or less straight up to the top of 2?
Somewhere in my basement I have a photocopy of some very old topos from El Cap, photocopies I made in about 1983 or so. I'm quite sure it shows Zodiac as following this direct start right up to the top of 2. The alternate start to the left was added later.
When I did the thing in 95 I think it was, I had no clue where to start. I climbed partway up the direct thing in the dark, only to be horrified when the ancient rivets ended and I was staring at some impossible-looking [to] move. I rapped off, and the next morning found the start to the left.
When I was back up there recently, I noticed that what I am calling the Original Start had been retrobolted, and those manky old rivets had been replaced with fat 3/8-inchers.
So what's this about a BLD/Waiting for the Sun/1993 thing that existed long before?
Or am I totally lost here?
[Note: I am known to get lost from time to time - and have even been told to get lost from time to time - most recently while I was trying to bushwhack into this lake in Northern Ontario, when both occured.....]
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alpinelynx
May 14, 2003, 2:17 AM
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I can't wait for you guys this summer..
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socalclimber
May 14, 2003, 3:38 AM
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I don't have a problem with someone jugging an entire route. They did the route. Remember, if you are not soloing, then it is a team effort. When I tell people I did Skull Queen, I tell them I did the wall, I also tell them that I jugged the whole thing. Just be honest about what you did. I still did the wall. Period.
Robert
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copperhead
May 14, 2003, 3:58 AM
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Nice troll Pete. You have been fishing lately, haven't you...
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passthepitonspete
May 14, 2003, 5:42 AM
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Evidently I am completely lost in the woods on this one, then....
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copperhead
May 14, 2003, 6:17 AM
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What are my initials? How old am I? When did I start wall climbing?
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passthepitonspete
May 14, 2003, 6:45 AM
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BL. Early thirties? No clue.
Are we talking about the start of Zodiac? Will you just answer the questions in the post above please?
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copperhead
May 14, 2003, 7:09 AM
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I did the FA of Waiting for the Sun in December of ’93, solo. It is the direct start to Zodiac, to the right of the main (original) corner. It was my first FA in the Valley and is probably my poorest.
I believe that Eminem’s original post is making fun of speed climbing or speed climbers… I dunno.
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passthepitonspete
May 14, 2003, 2:24 PM
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Check.
OK, I had a look thru my basement to try to find my pre-82 El Cap topos, and if you knew the status of my place, it would come as little suprise that I am unable to locate them.
However, my memory is pretty good. [I usually win at Trivial Pursuit, just don't ask me to remember to take out the garbage on Garbage Day....]
Charlie Porter made the FA of Zodiac in 73 by climbing straight up the blank-ish wall below the right hand side of the roof, did he not? The more usual [and much more obvious natural line] to the left which is the one usually climbed now, was added later.
Is it possible, Bryan, you unwittingly reclimbed Porter's original start, believing it to be an FA?
When I walked by the base of Zodiac last fall, I noticed new bolts had replaced the manky rivets on what I believed to be Porter's direct line.
Are there therefore THREE starts to Zodiac - the original, yours, and the one commonly used now [corner]?
Or did you repeat Porter's original line?
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base104
May 14, 2003, 3:39 PM
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Awww Pete. Your mind is going. The old Meyers topo and the original Porter start takes you up to the left side of the roof to a hanging belay. 2nd pitch traverses right, then pops over the roof to a couple of bolts and some more climbing to another belay. I can't remember the 2nd well, because MY mind is going. Anyway, when I did it, before fire was invented, there was pretty much nothing to the right of that start of Zodiac all the way to Eagle's Way, or something like that. Hell, I remember the ropes hanging off of Zenyatta. They were there the next year, too. Maybe the year before, as well. They looked pretty crispy. I remember some lady hiking up there with us and finding a circlehead in the talus beneath Zenyatta and holding it up and saying, "SEE! EVEN THE BIG BOYS DROP SHIT TOO!."
Like my use of colored fonts? It's my first and last try. And no; I ain't yankin' yer chain.
I guess I shouldn't be degrading this accident thread. I would like to re-state my previous sentiment that I hold that guy in my deepest respect.
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passthepitonspete
May 14, 2003, 3:57 PM
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In reply to: "Awww Pete. Your mind is going."
This is not exactly news.
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base104
May 14, 2003, 4:18 PM
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In reply to: there was pretty much nothing to the right of that start of Zodiac all the way to Eagle's Way ---------------------------------AND----------------------------------------------- I guess I shouldn't be degrading this accident thread. I would like to re-state my previous sentiment that I hold that guy in my deepest respect.
Yeah, Pete. My mind is no doubt really, really gone. I'm gonna have to notify the people I work with. The closest route to the right of Zodiac at the time was in fact BUBS, not Eagles Way, and I wasn't even posting to the accident thread LIKE I THOUGHT. I think the fact that we were discussing Zodiac confused me. Dementia at 41? OLDE ENGLISH DEMON BE GONE! I actually remember when that damned stuff showed up. Or when IT FOUND ME. I always thought it tasted awful. But it was the cheapest buzz in the valley. Trust me, now that I have money, I don't buy it.
Children! Drink WATER!
I gotta log off. I only have one phone line in here and I'm waiting on a call to see if they've found a liver for me.
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epic_ed
May 14, 2003, 4:25 PM
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In reply to: I guess I shouldn't be degrading this accident thread. I would like to re-state my previous sentiment that I hold that guy in my deepest respect.
That was pretty funny. That's what you get for trying to be helpful after pouring beer on your Cheerios. More beer than Cheerios, I'm sure.
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passthepitonspete
May 14, 2003, 4:35 PM
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Spoken sheepishly:
Er, um, uh, I actually like Olde English.......
I'll have to try it on my Fruit Loops, too.
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copperhead
May 14, 2003, 4:36 PM
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Pete, you are losing your mind. Zodiac was done in November, 1972 and is five months younger than I. Mescalito was done in ‘73. Don’t you have a guidebook or Clay’s Southeast Select route map/poster??? I am pretty damn sure that I climbed the direct line before anyone else. It’s pretty blank up there and I drilled all of the holes. No one else would have bothered to climb it. Some would say that climbing the variation pitch in the first place was bad style, and possibly for good reason.
I am very interested in what you say about the bolts being replaced. Originally, there were three bolts right off of the ground – a 3/8” thread-head with an SMC hanger, a 1/4" buttonhead with an SMC hanger, and a 1/4" thread-head with a Leeper hanger (the Leeper hanger was later pinched). I have not heard any word of this pitch being retrobolted. If in fact is has been, then I will be one pissed-off mofo and... This is absoulutley intolerable!!!!!!
Such replacement is not re-bolting; it is retrobolting. The retrobolting has gotten way out of control in the Valley and the madness WILL BE STOPPED!!!!!!!!
It’s time to get on the phone…
Do you know what is happening to all of our trade routes?
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natec
May 14, 2003, 4:48 PM
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I wanted to stay out of this post because I bring no true merit to it, but I would like to make a point.
The guys who are out there speed climbing are some of the best aid climbers to grace the valley walls. The decided route, in speed climbing terms, for Zodiac has been with the direct start. What do you care how anyone else climbs a route? Also, no party has ever been anything but straightforward about their ascents, use of fixed gear, and selected routes or deviations in their speed climbing claims. You should get out climbing a bit more, this would allow you to get away from your computer/climbing magazines long enough to stop worrying about what others are doing... in simple terms... get a life.
Copperhead, are you saying that since you placed a 1/4" bolt long ago, we should all just climb on those manky old mankillers until someone dies? After someone dies, then the bolt may be replaced? I'm unsure of what you are saying about the replacement (what you are calling retrobolting) of old bolts.
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passthepitonspete
May 14, 2003, 4:58 PM
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What I recall seeing was the direct line more or less straight up to the roof had sported a bunch of shiny new bolts. It looked like a cakewalk compared to when I had accidentally climbed up there in the dark, and bailed.
My first thought was, "oh, I guess the speed climbers rebolted it so they could climb the route faster."
My next thought was, "Hmm, well, I guess it's the direct line that Porter originally climbed, and they've just replaced manky old rivets with shiny new bolts."
Before you get on the phone, maybe you should go up and take a look for yourself? Getting bent out of shape about what you read on the internet is the sport of the insecure.
I have never claimed not to be losing my mind. Climbing the kind of stuff I do the way I do it is in all likelihood indicative of some type of mental disorder. No sane person would bother.
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