|
motley
Apr 26, 2003, 12:35 AM
Post #76 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 2
|
i think that mistakes happen. a gri gri is not faultproof, but in sport climbing it is ideal. i saw someone dropped 35ft. with and atc. we are humans. i bet your belayer is the best belayer you could ever have now. consider that. people think that it will not happen to them until it does...........and then they are the asshole. talk to you partner. learn together.
|
|
|
|
|
newtons_law
Apr 26, 2003, 1:26 AM
Post #77 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 19, 2002
Posts: 93
|
My GF dropped me in the gym while using a grigri. She is a new climber. The Gym's rope was to small for the device. When she was lowing me she felt the rope getting hot and let go. ZIP down I went. I don't blame her. Thats why we were in the gym. I do blame the meat head who told her that she did not have to have her hand on the brake rope a week before I fall. We were in a different gym. One of the employees overheard me telling her NEVER LET GO OF THE BRAKE ROPE. "Oh no these things are fool proof", she proclaimed, "you don't have to hold it at all if you don't want to". OH my f-ing God. Where do these people come from and how do they get jobs.
G
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 29, 2003, 12:18 AM
Post #78 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: My GF dropped me in the gym while using a grigri. She is a new climber. The Gym's rope was to small for the device.
Wrong. The rope was fine. Your girfriend screwed up.
In reply to: When she was lowing me she felt the rope getting hot and let go.
Translation: When you fell she grabbed the side of the rope going to you, which slowed the fall down enough to prevent the grigri from locking up.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Apr 29, 2003, 1:14 AM
Post #79 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
Excellent points, Krillen. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I only read about 3 pages here, but there was a common theme among them already. It's another GriGri-ATC debate... yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah.
Gonna be rather harsh here. It was your belayer's fault. Unless there was some gross freak mechanical failure, anyway. But pilot error is far more common.
I have lead belayed with a GriGri using a slick new 9.7mm rope, which the device doesn't automatically bite down on when you give it the yank test. The device will still hold a fall, though, if the belayer is actively paying attention and locks off like she would with an ATC. And I have caught lead falls with no incident with this skinny rope-GriGri combo, and I weigh almost 40 pounds less than my partner. Of course, I pay attention, understand that this device is not idiotproof, and can dynamically belay.
Let me repeat, though, what really matters here: THAT THE BELAYER IS PAYING ATTENTION.
Now, for the chorus!
"The GriGri is not foolproof, it is not the 'solution,' it is not the panacea.
Only use it if you have enough training
Blah blah blah."
Blah!
|
|
|
|
|
punk
Apr 29, 2003, 11:54 AM
Post #80 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 28, 2002
Posts: 1442
|
Who ever would like to get rid of their GriGri, I will offer them the retirement home….
I even will pay the shipping and small cost…just let me know
I NEED 2 OF THEM
|
|
|
|
|
markus
May 13, 2003, 11:25 AM
Post #81 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2003
Posts: 2
|
maybe the ropedirection was mixed up. If you belay a lead, you won't notice it unless the lead falls (and that's to late).
I once noticed that I had the rope direction wrong, only seconds before the lead wanted to hang in at top.
Since then: I ALWAYS double check the direction.
BTW: The GriGri is much to static for belaying a lead, unless the belayer
jumps up actively in case of a fall.
Look here for reference:
http://www.petzl.com/petzl/publicActiv?id=ESC#
and select on the left menu "Fall Simulator"
This is a java applet which calculates the forces of a lead fall.
|
|
|
|
|
granitegod
May 14, 2003, 3:01 PM
Post #82 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 340
|
I was once dropped with a gri gri about 20 feet in the gym, almost decking, by an experienced belayer. They are not foolproof (duh).
If the belayer is squeezing it to feed out rope when you fall, it may not lock. Any belay device requires constant vigilance. If you catch your belayer being inattentive, then correct the situation permanently, or get a new belayer. It's that simple. Lot's of excellent climbers are lazy belayers. I'd rather climb with a beginner who's a paranoid belayer that with lazy 5.13 sport climber.
|
|
|
|
|
mr_phelps
May 20, 2003, 8:11 AM
Post #83 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 112
|
Gri-Gri's are so simple that it's almost easier to say that the reason your gri-gri did not lock up could be two reasons:
1. No Brake Hand to create extra necessary force on the gri-gri, forcing it to lock up
2. the laws of physics suddenly changed and gravity is no longer a constant in some people's gym. Specifically, the weight of the climber becomes a variable during the fall, causing the usual large amount of force on the gri-gri to be negated, hence the lack of friction. It should be noted that in this case, the change in gravity is proportional to the intelligence of the belayer.
Basically, a gri-gri doesn't just not lock up unless it's really screwed up and broken. But, you can tell if it's screwed up and broken. Even if it was screwed up and broken, if you have a functioning brake hand, and a brain to provide a small amount of force necessary to stop the rope and let the gri-gri lock itself, then it will catch you.
I just think that this anti-gri-gri feeling is a little useless. Stupidity happens, and it's not going to go away just because you use a different belay device. It's just a shame that some people will not not concede that a gri-gri works, although it may have different uses than an ATC.
I think they should maybe put a warning label on them:
Please note. Unfortunately, a gri-gri cannot increase the level of belayer intelligence. If you find that you have been dropped by a working gri-gri, please use your gri-gri to beat that person until they just admit they are a dumbass and they dropped you.
|
|
|
|
|
taino
May 20, 2003, 11:43 AM
Post #84 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
In reply to: *The handle should be fully released when rappelling or lowering, the brake hand does ALL the braking.* ABSOLUTE BS. The device does almost all the work when lowering, the brake hand does like 10%, you'd burn the hell out of your hand if "the brake hand does ALL the braking" when lowering. If you "fully release" the handle you WILL drop the climber. You either have NO IDEA what you're talking about or are having trouble articulating, please refrain from posting until you do!
When you use an ATC, do you burn the hell out of your hand when lowering? NO. You can, yes - but only if you let the rope come screaming through.
When I'm forced to use a gri-gri (indoors), I control the rate of descent of the climber with my brake hand - not the cam in the gri-gri. My climber says "down!", my brake hand assumes the proper locked-off position (at or around the hip, palm down, arm straight), and after the climber gets settled the gate is opened - fully. The climber doesn't move, unless I let up with my brake hand - which, incidentally, IS NEVER OFF THE FOCKING LINE. EVER.
In closing, I offer your own words to you:
In reply to: You either have NO IDEA what you're talking about or are having trouble articulating, please refrain from posting until you do!
Tai
|
|
|
|
|
rodeomountain
May 20, 2003, 12:46 PM
Post #85 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 190
|
In reply to: It sure must be hard to feed that gri gri out when you have a break hand on the rope and trying to pull and push it through
It's not hard to keep a hand on as break if you pull up extra rope with your right hand, release the break with your pinky & ring finger & pull the slack out with your left hand. This way if your leader falls the sudden impact of a fall will jerk the break away from your fingers and you will still have the rope in your break hand as back up.
|
|
|
|
|
burz
May 20, 2003, 1:03 PM
Post #86 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 94
|
In reply to: When I'm forced to use a gri-gri (indoors), I control the rate of descent of the climber with my brake hand - not the cam in the gri-gri. My climber says "down!", my brake hand assumes the proper locked-off position (at or around the hip, palm down, arm straight), and after the climber gets settled the gate is opened - fully. The climber doesn't move, unless I let up with my brake hand - which, incidentally, IS NEVER OFF THE FOCKING LINE. EVER.Tai
To this I would say be careful. I have only used a Gri Gri at my gym (I use an ATC outdoors), and I do always keep my brake hand on the rope. I do, to some extent, control the descent with my brake hand (i think it makes it smoother), but can not fully. I have tried, it burns the hell out of my hand, and this is with my brake hand fully locked off behind my waist. Maybe it depends to some extent on the age of the rope and the "newness" of the Gri Gri. But, for all the noobs out there, don't depend ONLY on your brake hand to control the descent using a GRi GRi.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 20, 2003, 4:09 PM
Post #87 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: When I'm forced to use a gri-gri (indoors)... my brake hand - which, incidentally, IS NEVER OFF THE FOCKING LINE. EVER.
Let's put an end, right now, to this BS that you can belay well with a gri-gri without ever taking your brake hand off the rope.
If it is true that you never take your brake hand off the rope, then one of the following must also be true:
[*:d9738efd36]You only belay top roped climbers.
[*:d9738efd36]You aren't belaying skilled sport climbers, who pull up lots of rope fast to clip.
[*:d9738efd36]Your partner is intentionally pulling up rope slowly, so you don't short rope him.
[*:d9738efd36]You do short rope him.
[*:d9738efd36]You are using a rope which is brand new or thin, or your gri-gri is worn.
[*:d9738efd36]You are leaving too much slack in the rope.
I do not know a single skilled sport climber who, when using a gri-gri, leaves his brake hand on the rope when yarding out slack for the leader to make a clip. It is common to have to pull out three full arm lengths of rope to give a leader enough slack to make a high clip. Experienced sport climbers pull out rope fast, and there is simply no way to pull rope out of the gri-gri fast enough to avoid short roping him without letting go with the brake hand. One hand has to hold the cam open, the other has to pull rope out. That leaves no hands left to hold the free end of the rope. Even Petzl's technical literature explains that this is an (the?) acceptable method to pay out slack for a clip. You must, of course, train yourself to get your brake hand back onto the free end of the rope as soon as you have pulled out the requisite amount of slack.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
the_pirate
May 20, 2003, 8:51 PM
Post #88 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 3984
|
In reply to: What if that chunk of rock (which is speeding earthwards at an accelerated rate because of the force that broke it off) - kalcairo
Vtot = Vi + A*T
Where Vi is the initial velocity, A is the acceleration of gravity, and T is the time in flight
|
|
|
|
|
roninthorne
May 20, 2003, 9:28 PM
Post #89 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2002
Posts: 659
|
Oh, good... the Profile Poseur has weighed in with a pronouncement.... now we can all go home..... as usual, if he doesn't know about it, it does not and cannot happen or exist....
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 20, 2003, 9:55 PM
Post #90 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Oh, good... the Profile Poseur has weighed in with a pronouncement.... now we can all go home..... as usual, if he doesn't know about it, it does not and cannot happen or exist....
Your post adds nothing to the thread. It ignores the arguments I made (local consensus, physical limitations, and manufacturers recommendations) and just flames me ("Profile Poseur"). I'm not going to engage in another flame war with you. This needs to stop here. Any further flames in this thread are going to be moved to Community.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
dymondbak37
May 20, 2003, 10:06 PM
Post #91 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 29, 2002
Posts: 212
|
get a new belayer
|
|
|
|
|
mr_phelps
May 21, 2003, 7:41 PM
Post #92 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2002
Posts: 112
|
jt512 wrote
In reply to: You aren't belaying skilled sport climbers, who pull up lots of rope fast to clip.
I do agree with this one. It is possible to belay someone with a grigri on a sport climb, the question is would you ever want to? At least with an ATC you don't face the risk of the thing locking up if your your finger slips off the plastic bar. However, this in no way diminishes the value of a grigri. I still think they are one of the greatest things ever since they allow to me lock off someone who want's to hang for a couple of seconds without destroying my forearms.
Come on People, GriGri are as functional as a Cam. Does anyone ever argue that a Cam does not work? Probably not.
|
|
|
|
|
arp30
May 21, 2003, 8:15 PM
Post #93 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 2, 2002
Posts: 42
|
I agree with your statement about gyms becomming increasingly lazy when it comes to teaching belaying. I originally learned how to belay on an ATC. Now after about three years or so I have switched to a gir-gri just for it's convenience. I still use a tube once in a while mainly to keep up with the skill. THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT. I have yet to discover any flaws wit a gri-gri. I don't disbelieve those who have found problems with this device, I have never come across any personally and find the tool to be very useful.
Climb on.
|
|
|
|
|
bigo
May 21, 2003, 8:34 PM
Post #94 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 11, 2002
Posts: 237
|
So I just browsed this thread a little - brings a smile to my face. If you learn how to use any belay devise it will work.
One thing I did read that I have a comment on is what Jay said:
In reply to: Let's put an end, right now, to this BS that you can belay well with a gri-gri without ever taking your brake hand off the rope.
When I hold the cam down on my Gri-Gri I use my right hand with my thumb on the top of the Gri-Gri and my fingers on the bottom. The break line loops up and back over the rounded ridge between the Gri-Gri and my hand. This is not how Petzl recommends to depress the cam, but I have found I can pull rope quickly without taking my hand completely off the break line. I have, in fact, caught people who have fallen clipping.
Also, as Jay eluded to in the earlier post this works much better with a thin rope < 10mm, or a worn out Gri-Gri, but I can make it work with an old fuzzy 10.5.
Orion
|
|
|
|
|
samshafer
May 22, 2003, 8:52 AM
Post #95 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 27, 2000
Posts: 127
|
Renobdarb, I just figured out that must be your name backwards. Am I right?
Anyway, you just pointed out why I had to start using rope solo devices. My wife was either too wimpy, tired, distracted by the baby (we took her in the baby seat before she was 2) or just not with me. When she was there, her belaying was so scary that I'd swear she was trying to collect life insurance :shock: When ever she did belay it was with a gri-gri and I would anchor it to a tree so she could run off & chase the baby or whatever & I'd be ok till she got back. I also tried to do only relatively easy climbs with her belaying.
I did get dropped once by a grade school girl using my gri-gri on a climbing wall. I made the mistake of showing her the black handle & she used it when I was ready to come down (about 4-5 meters up).
I was looking for it yesterday to day a new girl with me & couldn't find it.
Just as well :?
|
|
|
|
|
michell_e
May 24, 2003, 4:13 AM
Post #96 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2002
Posts: 49
|
In reply to: Let's put an end, right now, to this BS that you can belay well with a gri-gri without ever taking your brake hand off the rope. If it is true that you never take your brake hand off the rope, then one of the following must also be true:
[a]You only belay top roped climbers.
You aren't belaying skilled sport climbers, who pull up lots of rope fast to clip.
[c]Your partner is intentionally pulling up rope slowly, so you don't short rope him.
[d]You do short rope him.
[e]You are using a rope which is brand new or thin, or your gri-gri is worn.
[f]You are leaving too much slack in the rope.
I do not know a single skilled sport climber who, when using a gri-gri, leaves his brake hand on the rope when yarding out slack for the leader to make a clip.
i belay skilled climbers. very skilled fast clipping climbers. i belay them well. i keep my hand on the brake. its definitely possible - what do you do - let go of the brake and pull slack with both your hands in alternation?? of your points above, the only one that remotely applies is [e] - the 2nd bit about a worn gri gri - cause its been used a lot. ( and nobody's ever been dropped)
look somewhere around page 6 or 5 for the way to do it.
(edit) or just look 2 posts up at bigo - yep, it works. that's how i do it too.
|
|
|
|
|
michell_e
May 24, 2003, 4:20 AM
Post #97 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2002
Posts: 49
|
In reply to: Let's put an end, right now, to this BS that you can belay well with a gri-gri without ever taking your brake hand off the rope. If it is true that you never take your brake hand off the rope, then one of the following must also be true:
[a]You only belay top roped climbers.
You aren't belaying skilled sport climbers, who pull up lots of rope fast to clip.
[c]Your partner is intentionally pulling up rope slowly, so you don't short rope him.
[d]You do short rope him.
[e]You are using a rope which is brand new or thin, or your gri-gri is worn.
[f]You are leaving too much slack in the rope.
I do not know a single skilled sport climber who, when using a gri-gri, leaves his brake hand on the rope when yarding out slack for the leader to make a clip.
i belay skilled climbers. very skilled fast clipping climbers. i belay them well. i keep my hand on the brake. its definitely possible - what do you do - let go of the brake and pull slack with both your hands in alternation?? of your points above, the only one that remotely applies is [e] - the 2nd bit about a worn gri gri - cause its been used a lot. ( and nobody's ever been dropped)
look somewhere around page 6 or 5 for the way to do it.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
May 24, 2003, 4:42 AM
Post #98 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: what do you do - let go of the brake and pull slack with both your hands in alternation??
I question, based on the above, whether you use a grigri at all, because if you did, you would know that what you are suggested -- if only facetiously -- would cause the gri gri to lock up.
I read the description of your belay technique in your earlier post, and the more comprehensible description of it posted by Bigo, and I question whether you could pull out slack fast enough with a worn, larger-diameter rope, with the additional friction from having the rope bent back over the gri-gri and running through your fingers. In any event, keeping your hand on the brake side of the rope in the manner you describe requires holding the cam release mechanism continuously open in the unlocked position. Considering that the cam is intended as the primary braking mechanism and the brake hand the backup, this is a poor trade-off, compared with belaying in the manner recommended by Petzl.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
renobdarb
May 24, 2003, 4:57 AM
Post #99 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 14, 2003
Posts: 393
|
In reply to: Renobdarb, I just figured out that must be your name backwards. Am I right?
right you are... you've exposed my secret identity!
In reply to: Come on People, GriGri are as functional as a Cam. Does anyone ever argue that a Cam does not work? Probably not.
actually, i think people do... not that they necessarily don't work, but i've heard many people say they would rather use passive pro (no moving parts) than active pro (with moving parts)... to put it simpler, people tend to think something with no moving parts are less likely to fail... to draw a parallel, an ATC has no moving parts... a Gri Gri, well, need i say more?
Bottom line: the Gri Gri is an effective belay device. but (like cams) they are more expensive, heavier, bulkier, and you have to know how to use them for them to work.
|
|
|
|
|
addiroids
May 24, 2003, 4:57 AM
Post #100 of 198
(19155 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 11, 2001
Posts: 1046
|
In reply to: I have a small cut on the top of my head from where I rolled back and bumped it on a Nalgene bottle on the ground. It bleed pretty good, but all things considered I am extremely lucky.
So that I don't have to read through 7 pages of crap to see, I will assume that no one has yet said the following:
WHY THE FVCK WEREN'T YOU WEARING YOUR HELMET?!?!?
Dude, you were climbing rocks. Okay, an ex-friend said he only wears it when aid climbing or where rocks can fall and hit him in the head. He can fall without hitting his head on the rocks he says.
Okay people, try this. Go up to some bricks, or a smooth tree trunk and just kind of bump your head into it quickly. It fvcking hurts huh? Now imagine only hitting it from 3 feet above the ground. Can you imagine the sheer pain that would cause. You could easily crack your <1cm thick skull from only 3 FEET! Imagine a 30 footer (not that rare of a fall when climbing if your last piece is only 10 feet below your feet) and hitting your head on the rocks.
Dude, you would fvcking die or be a vegetable.
Screw the gri-gri. They are great pieces of equipment that can make some types of climbing (aid) way faster and safer (cleaner hauls and belays hands free). Sure it sucks that you got dropped, but as said before, it works just like an ATC when turned the wrong way. The problem was your belayer's inattention too.
So before you go blaming your belay device, take a look at your own self. You see no helmet on your head. Well then dammit, put one on and go try not to die from a head wound please.
I'm glad to hear you are alright, just think before you climb.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
