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brutusofwyde
May 23, 2003, 10:34 AM
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I hope you're not referring to the copperheads in the photo. The eight leftmost thingamajigs are heads.
The 6 doohickies on the right are rivet hangers. The three rightmost of those are cinch hangers, which use the weight of the climber to cinch the hanger tighter on the rivet. More secure than the standard rivet hanger, but kind of a pain to clean after they've been weighted. You missed one kind, the best kind of cinch hanger, that has a rivet loop and two clip loops rather than one clip loop and a swage, Much easier to clean: you clip into one of the clip loops to cinch and weight the hanger. When cleaning, after unweighting, just clip a carabiner into the other loop and pull, an the puppy uncinches like magik.
hth.
Brutus
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climbingcowboy
May 23, 2003, 11:41 AM
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In reply to: I hope you're not referring to the copperheads in the photo. The eight leftmost thingamajigs are heads.
Naw I knew what was what in the pic, its just the pic Shoreline has when you click on any of the above mentioned, so I just copied it.
So the Cinch's are more secure but more of a pain to relase then the rivet hangers,
1.do you normally carry both?
2.What decides which you place?
3.All I've practised using are just smaller nuts with stopper pulled down, I was going to buy some which should I get?
In reply to: You missed one kind, the best kind of cinch hanger, that has a rivet loop and two clip loops rather than one clip loop and a swage,
Where do find those? You got a Pic?
Thanks Bro
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atg200
May 23, 2003, 2:13 PM
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i use standard rivet hangers 99% of the time because they are stronger and easier to clean. on the other hand, i climb mostly in the desert so i can excavate the rivets a bit to make standard rivet hangers very secure. i also carry a few fish doubloons, but i've never needed them. perhaps in yosemite they are more useful.
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copperhead
May 23, 2003, 3:45 PM
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RP Keyhole Hangers
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russwalling
May 23, 2003, 4:01 PM
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Cinch hangers are sketch and should be avoided.
check this link for more data:
http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/cable.html
adios,
Russ
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iamthewallress
May 23, 2003, 6:40 PM
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Heads up on the keyhole hangers....The rivets on at least one of the routes that I've seen you mention have been replaced w/ 3/8" buttonheads. My keyhole hangers wouldn't fit over the button. I had to wrastle a little w/ the fig 8 styley cinching rivet hangers, but they worked OK.
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hans
May 23, 2003, 9:40 PM
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The Pika keyhole hangers that I have are too small to fit over a shaft larger than 5/16" diameter.
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climbingcowboy
May 23, 2003, 9:53 PM
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Right on thanks, going to pick up some rivet hangers, Copperhead where do you buy the RP Keyhole hangers, or do you make um?
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edge
May 23, 2003, 10:03 PM
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Don't get sucked in by the shiny toys. A wired stopper is all I've ever used for the past 25 years. Since I have them and am carrying them already, they are right on my gear rack. Just slide the aluminum head down, loop the cable over the rivet, and slide the head back up. Needless specialty toys are meant for one purpose only, to separate you from your money.
p.s. I also don't own any bottle openers, as I can open a Guiness with a piton, hex, carabiner, or my teeth if neccesary.
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climbingcowboy
May 23, 2003, 10:27 PM
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Haha right on edge, Never mind Copperhead found um at Shorline in the hangers section.
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iamthewallress
May 23, 2003, 10:54 PM
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The nut will leave you hanging much lower! Give me a $2 rivet hanger over a top step any day! Cleaning a traverse of hooks spaced by rivets slung with nuts was one of my scariest pitches ever. I was so afraid every time I swung onto the next nut-slung rivet that it would pop off and send me bouncing along the wall. It was mostly mental, but as I said, $2 in the realm of aid gear is about as cheap as it gets.
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russwalling
May 24, 2003, 12:02 AM
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In reply to: Don't get sucked in by the shiny toys. A wired stopper is all I've ever used for the past 25 years. Since I have them and am carrying them already, they are right on my gear rack. Just slide the aluminum head down, loop the cable over the rivet, and slide the head back up. Needless specialty toys are meant for one purpose only, to separate you from your money.
True, unless:
You are on a giant rivet ladder. Got 25 stoppers that will work?
Your stoppers look like mine and no longer slide.
You like that long rivet hanger/stopper handicap.
You are using mostly RP's.
The rivets are nearly flush to the wall and you just ran out of your zero stoppers.
You happen to have 10 #0 stoppers and do just fine until you rip the ladder and break all your stoppers. Now you have no rivet hangers or small stoppers.
You enjoy kinked cable in your stoppers long after the wall is finished.
You enjoy reducing the strength of your stoppers by fraying the wire whilst over the threads on a 1/4" rawl.
You like the sketch factor of using a stopper that will loosen up on the rivet instead of the fully cinched and kinked method of using rivet hangers in their most secure mode.
Yep, those needless specialty toys have no place on the rack.
adios,
Russ
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climbingcowboy
May 24, 2003, 1:44 AM
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All I've been praticeing with is using stoppers, I can toatlly see how much more sketch they seem. Just seemed to me if so many people use a tool made for a specific job there must be a reason.
In reply to: You happen to have 10 #0 stoppers and do just fine until you rip the ladder and break all your stoppers. Now you have no rivet hangers or small stoppers.
Russ-Sh!t didnt think about that.
Whats a good number of Rivet hangers and Rp hangers to carry? i know it depends on the pitch but how many to have.
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bigdan
May 24, 2003, 6:20 AM
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i'd get just a standard rivet hanger for normal valley rivets, and use homemade stuff for everything else. i think they work better anyway.
here's something i posted awhile back on another post that describes my homemades...
i have some homemade rivet hangers made of washers and webbing that work great. just get a few washers big enough to fit over studs or rivets, and put a small loop of webbing through it. use a little tape to hold the webbing in place. sharpen the inside of the washer where the webbing doesn't touch. the tape is important because it keeps the webbing loop from spinning on the washer and getting cut on the sharpened side of the washer.
these guys really come in handy in the desert, where instead of the traditional rivet (machine bolt), you'll find ladders of old, rusted, hangerless 1/4", or worse, 3/16" bolts. so what you basically have is a rusty, threaded stud that bends with weight. and half the time they slope down. that's where the sharpened washer comes in handy. the sharp edge will catch on the threads, and hold when weighted surprisingly well, even on down-sloping "desert rivets."
(near where i live, in garden of the gods, there are several routes with these. decades ago, the aid climbers wanted to climb all these cool-looking features in the garden. only problem was, the rock is often bad, and usually featureless when steep. so there's tons of these ladders of "desert rivets." one climb called "the inferno" is like this. on the 3rd pitch there's a section of about a dozen of these in a row, interrupted halfway by a single drilled pin, which conveniently sticks out halfway - the only "bomber" piece. fun stuff.)
i have 'em in a few sizes, that is different sizes of washers, to accomodate different weird types of rivets.
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bigdan
May 24, 2003, 6:22 AM
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as far as the number of them to bring, you don't need many. i don't personally see the point in leaving them behind, as long as the fall is clean. if you want the protection, you can leave them in place i guess, but i don't bother.
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atg200
May 26, 2003, 2:30 AM
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i bring a lot of them depending on the route. the colroado northeast ridge on the kingfisher is mostly rivets and strange hangerless bolts, and i leave every single one of those in - A4 danger with A0 difficulty. YMMV depending on the route.
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brutusofwyde
May 26, 2003, 4:48 PM
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Fish Dubloons, only mentioned one other place in this thread, are great. Not only do they fit most rivets and dowels, I have even used them on broken rivets where there was just enough metal sticking out for the sharpened edge of the dubloon to bite. And when taped to the end of a cheat stick, they give a much more secure feeling than wriggling a standard rivet hanger over that out-of-reach blob of metal.
One modification I have made in Fish dubloons is to use seam grip to "glue" the washer of the dubloon in the proper orientation. This gluing lasts fotr a couple walls.
I always carry 2-3 dubloons on the harder walls, as well as an assortment of rivet hangers (for rivets) and keyhole hangers (for the odd Rawl Buttonhead in the long stretch of Z-mac rivets, and for belays and bivies). It is true that cinch hangers are sketch, particularly in the smallest cable size (1/16" cable) but I think they do have their place. Lots of options in rivet hangers weighs very little.
Brutus
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