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estwing
May 29, 2003, 2:58 AM
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Hi all, I am in the fantasy stage of planning a two pitch trad route.
From what I can see the mid point belay will be a hanging affair. All hate for bolted anchors aside, what would constitute your ideal belay/rappel station?
My question is really, what type of hangers, with what type of accesories would you be most happy to encounter at the mid point, and at the top of the climb?(They can be different)
This is some of the hardware that I have at my disposal
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=579083&bmUID=1054176348571
Thank you for your thoughts,
Sam
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jhwnewengland
May 29, 2003, 3:06 AM
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That Fixe Belay/Rappel station with 3/8" stainless bolts would be great. If there are trees at the top I'd use fixed slings and two rap rings (stainless). Otherwise another one of the Belay/Rappel stations at the top.
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sheldonjr
May 29, 2003, 3:20 AM
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Yeah. What he said. Or a pair of the Fixe 3/8" chain anchor pieces. Whatever you do, everyone will love you if you're not cheap. :)
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tradklime
May 29, 2003, 3:57 PM
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I prefer the fixe rappel hangers, simple and clean. I think the chain set up is nice if you are going to offset one of the bolts, but if the rock quality is good I wouldn't bother. The less stuff hanging off the rock the better.
Make sure you use stainless bolts and hardware, and if you really want the ultimate use 12mm or 1/2 inch bolts.
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alpnclmbr1
May 29, 2003, 5:05 PM
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is there a walkoff?
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tenn_dawg
May 29, 2003, 5:09 PM
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http://www.mec.ca/...limbing/4006569t.jpg
Two of these, placed at somekind of a stance that does not interfere with any climbing moves. Stone Mountain NC is a PRIME example of how these should be placed.
Travis
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one900johnnyk
May 29, 2003, 5:11 PM
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please keep the bolts close together so there is less oblique force on them... as for any other amenities, hookers and coke... a tv, couch...
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petsfed
May 29, 2003, 5:12 PM
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Likewise, is there a walkoff? Is there a convenient crack in the middle? Can you do a two rope rap or are the pitches full rope lengths? And do please avoid chains, they are irritating to set an anchor from. The rap bolts would be the best.
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estwing
May 29, 2003, 6:33 PM
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Thanks for the opinions, as I said this is just the dream stage, real investigation has yet to begin. I will look for a walk off before making a rap station.
Thanks again,
Sam
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flamer
May 30, 2003, 12:56 AM
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My only suggestion is this...what ever you do make it easy to replace in the future. Basically I would say use a couple of standard hangers and put a Big Quick link on eack- that way when the quick links wear out all you have to done is put a couple of new ones on. The fixe stuff is nice, but when big grooves get worn into the rap rings you'd have to pull the whole bolt out to replace the hanger.
josh
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climberpunk
Jun 19, 2003, 7:49 PM
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http://www.ushba.com/...bigphoto/glue-in.jpg
3 glue in titanium Ushba bolts in a triangle, the lower two with quick links to rap off of.. some may say its unnessicary, but i love totally uber-bomber belay anchors, especially if its a hanging belay. my biggest point would be use quick links instead of rap-rings, for easy-replacability, and NO CHAINS. they are super ugly and unnessicary, just bring a cordalette! check the link for how stainless steel can rust and break...
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 22, 2003, 10:28 PM
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What's wrong with the fixe rap rings? when the rings groove out it is easy enough to add quick links. Those hangers are nice as they orient the straight out from the rock just like the rings they come with. With reguler hangers you need 2 quick links on each bolt to have them orient themselfs for easy rope pulling.
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rockprodigy
Jun 23, 2003, 4:37 PM
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Personally, I prefer the Fixe ring anchors. They're clean, low visual impact (compared to chains or webbing), and easy to anchor to. I would argue that two bolts is much less visual impact than slings around a tree, and much less environmental impact than the erosion and destroyed vegetation of yet another climber's trail descending from the top.
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brutusofwyde
Jun 24, 2003, 12:28 AM
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How long are these pitches?
Just get a 70m or 80m rope, make it one proud pitch.
Brutus
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clymber
Jun 24, 2003, 1:30 AM
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is it possible to make the belay out of gear...everyone is jumping right into placing bolts..just curious
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ambler
Jun 24, 2003, 1:40 AM
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In reply to: is it possible to make the belay out of gear...everyone is jumping right into placing bolts..just curious
The way the question has been phrased, the bolts sound like the point of the climb. We haven't heard about its quality or challenge, or whether alternatives to placing bolts might exist.
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caughtinside
Jun 24, 2003, 8:08 AM
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Dude, go with the fixe ring bolts.
When the rings groove out, you can replace them with quicklinks, quicklinks and chains, whatever. I don't like those fat rap hangers myself. 2 regular hangars you might as well go with a quicklink and chain, because as previously stated otherwise you'd need 2 quicklinks on each hangar to get the rope running the right way.
Fixe ring bolts are the best, and they are the least expensive. Get stainless.
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ljthawk
Jun 24, 2003, 2:46 PM
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If you can't make a rap station from natural protection, then use the Fixe double rings, not the single rings. The double rings do a better job at keeping the rope in a straight line (not bent around the rings) then single rings. The single rings tend to pull to the side and twist parallel to the rock, causing the rope to bend around them. Another option is one Fixe hanger / chain / rap ring anchor above one double ring anchor.
Also, don't put the bolts too close together. True bolts spread eight inches apart create slightly larger angles on rappel, but they are stronger for belaying the second pitch and proper top rope set up (if it is done). Changes on forces by having the bolts a few more inches apart when threading the rope directly through and rappeling are minimal and the change in angle is not much once you consider the triangle of the rope is really down to the point of the rappeler; it only matters when the climber is first rigging in the rappel and is right next to the anchor and even then rappeling forces are not that much. If you use the double ring and the Fixe chain with rap ring, then this isn't even an issue.
Again, if you can set up a natural belay station / rap anchor or a gear belay station and can easily walk / double rope rap down from the top, skip the bolts all together.
L.J.
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climberpunk
Jun 26, 2003, 4:22 PM
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the problem with the fixe rap rings, is once they wear out you have to haul a bolt clipper up the cliff to get them off, where as quicklinks u just take them off. and as far as needing two to rap, not if you place the bolts right, then they work just like the rap rings.
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ljthawk
Jun 26, 2003, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: the problem with the fixe rap rings, is once they wear out you have to haul a bolt clipper up the cliff to get them off, where as quicklinks u just take them off. and as far as needing two to rap, not if you place the bolts right, then they work just like the rap rings.
1. Just take a new hanger up and replace the whole unit, much easier then bolt cutters. Back at home use a dremel to cut off the worn rap ring and replace it with a quicklink, or cut off both rings and use it as a normal hanger.
2. Not sure what you refer to as properly placing the bolt so the rope doesn't twist when using a single rap ring or quick link with a normal or "single ring" hanger. If you have any pictures as examples I would love to see, but I can't visualize any physical way to do so.
3. Rap rings also last longer then quick links because the rub point of the rope is always changing, unlike a quick link that has only two possible places for the rope to rub; the cradle of each end.
L.J.
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rrrADAM
Jun 26, 2003, 5:34 PM
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This is a Trad route, and we are talking about a hanging belay right ??? Build an anchor with your gear. The main ethic behind Trad is to "leave no trace" or climb with as little impact on the rock as possible. So why bolt if you don't have to ???
If you had to, then bolts with chains.
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thedesertnomad
Jun 26, 2003, 5:59 PM
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In reply to: is it possible to make the belay out of gear...everyone is jumping right into placing bolts..just curious
Tell me about it... lol I was reading this wondering if anyone noticed his hatred of bolts... hehehe I have done many a clean hanging belay. No worries if the gear is bomber 8)
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ljthawk
Jun 26, 2003, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: Again, if you can set up a natural belay station / rap anchor or a gear belay station and can easily walk / double rope rap down from the top, skip the bolts all together. L.J.
L.J.
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okinawatricam
Jan 1, 2004, 11:42 PM
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Let's get something out in the open, there is nothing wrong with a two bolt belay sation on a multy pitch route. Actually, routes with bolted belays see more traffic, and what is the use of putting up a route if noone is going to repeat it.
If you don't believe that bolted belays are welcome, look at the traffic on El Cap routes with pitches that have bolted belays versus the ones that don't. If you don't like bolted belays, don't do the route.
Another conversation about belays:
http://rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=47113
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crushingfinger
Jan 2, 2004, 2:50 AM
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I'm with rrrADAM. But it is very interesting that so many of you like ring anchers. True the look nice and all but they wear out and become usless. Chain on the other hand is cheaper and lastes longer. If you can't rig a hanging belay from a chain anchor you should not be on a trad climb, or any other climb for that matter.
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