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swanberger
Jun 2, 2003, 12:54 AM
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i know this is being talked about everywhere, but i am looking to buy some quickdraws for sport climbing. i looked at BD's positrons and i really like them. but then i hear wire gates are nice, so i looked at BD's hotwires. what are the pros and cons of wire gates?
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antagonism
Jun 2, 2003, 1:08 AM
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Pros: They are lighter, easier to clip, and stronger
Cons: Might be a little more expensive
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kennoyce
Jun 2, 2003, 1:18 AM
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you just forgot to mention safer, wiregates have less chance of the gate wiplash because the gate weighs so little so there is less of a chance of falling on an open gate.
go with wiregates, they´remuch better.
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jimdavis
Jun 2, 2003, 1:33 AM
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Lighter weight. Less gate flutter. Better gate clearance. Easier clipping. Less likely to freeze shut in icy conditions.
However they're more expensive, weaker when x-loaded, and apparently are more prone to having gear work out thought the gate than regular biners. (I've never heard of this, nor do i think it's that big of an issue, so i'll rack on Wiregates until it happens to me.)
That's all i can think of. Feel free to correct me or add on here guys.
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spacecowboy
Jun 2, 2003, 1:42 AM
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besides ease of use and all that, which are usually personal preferences, they offer one distinct advantage, reduction in gate flutter.
try this, take an oridnary carabiner and a wire gate next time your in the store...hold the regualr one in you hand as if you index finger were a rope, and smack the spine against the palm of your other hand...hear that sound, that's gate flutter.
now try it with the wire gate, it's less if there at all. this means that the gate is less likely to pop open and drop your rope if it bangs it's spine against the rock.
i'm sure there are other advantages and disadvantages, but that's the main one i've heard of.
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yotrepo
Jun 2, 2003, 1:51 AM
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I think BD makes a quick draw set with one positron and one wiregate, that might be a good choice. Easy to unclip the positron from the bolt, no gate flutter on the rope's biner.
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pranaguy
Jun 2, 2003, 2:24 AM
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In reply to: However they're more expensive, weaker when x-loaded...
Black Diamond Hotwires crossload strength is exactly same as the Quicksilver carabiner (7 kn). In fact, the 'biner is equal in strength in all regards to the Quicksilver. And on gear express, they're a bit cheaper, too.
-Matt
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vanny37
Jun 2, 2003, 3:58 AM
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Dug back through the physics stuff for a little hard evidence on why wire gates flutter less. Here are some basics, don't quote me on this, but its in the ballpark.
Gate flutter is less because of the Moments of Inertia of the gates.
Moment of Inertia of a slender rod with the axis through one end (ie, a 'biner gate) is
I = (1/3)*M*L^2
where m is mass and L is length of the rod.
The moment of inertia is the tendency of the body to resist changes in its current motion, whether motionless or moving. The higher the inertia of an object, the greater amount of force it will take to move the object or to stop it.
In reply to: try this, take an oridnary carabiner and a wire gate next time your in the store...hold the regualr one in you hand as if you index finger were a rope, and smack the spine against the palm of your other hand...hear that sound, that's gate flutter.
What spacecowboy says is true because the regular 'biner gates weigh more and therefore take more to stop once that 'biner gets moving.
Here's an example for yinz...
I measured a gate of a random 'biner of mine at 5.5 cm. I then took Mountain Gear's Early Summer '03 catalog and averaged the mass of all the straight gate biners minus the heaviest and lightest and then did the same for the wires. The wires averaged 40.375 grams and the regular gates avg. 53.5 grams. Assuming the difference is all in the gate, a wire gate will on average weigh 13.125 grams lighter than a regular gate. I then assumed a wire gate weighs 5 grams, making a regular gate to be assumed to weigh 18.125 grams.
With that:
I(wiregate) = (1/3)*(5 grams)*(5.5 cm)^2 = 50.42 g*cm^2
I(regular) = (1/3)*(18.125 grams)*(5.5 cm)^2 = 182.76 g*cm^2
The mass of the regular gate is 3.625 times greater than the wire gate's and subsequently the moment of inertia is 3.625 times greater. This means that when you smack that 'biner against the rock, the spring holding the gate in (assuming the springs on regular biners are comparable to wire gates) has to exert 3.625 times more force to stop the gate's motion (F=m*a). In other words, that regular gate is going to open a lot more than a wire gate, allowing a greater chance for your lifeline to go out into the free world and for you to get more frequent flyer miles.
Now you can go run all the energy and momentum problems and figure out exactly how fast a gate is moving after a biner gets dropped for example (I'm not that good, nor THAT much of a nerd :wink: ) but this gives a little justification to the well known idea that wire gates flutter less.
Climbing is all physics... you're not defying gravity, you're just in equilibrium!
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tahquitztwo
Jun 2, 2003, 4:27 AM
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Check out the BD Quickwires....a less pricey version of their Hotwires. I've added a few to my gear although for my draws I use Neutrinos...I've got small hands :D
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spacecowboy
Jun 2, 2003, 4:52 AM
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damn vanny37...talk about a physics major in his element.
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canadianclimber
Jun 2, 2003, 4:58 AM
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Speaking of quickwires vs. hotwires, I don't uderstand why hotwires are more expensive. According to the black diamond website, quickwires are exactly the same strength (25-9-7), 3 grams lighter, bigger rope bearing surface, and only have 3mm smaller gate opening. I don't know why you would buy hotwires over quickwires, unless I'm missing something. Here's the site if your interested: http://www.bdel.com/gear/rock/biners.php
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koto
Jun 2, 2003, 7:03 AM
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^^^ The answer is in the Positron biner that the Hotwire has compared to the Quickwire's Enduro. The Positron is a far superior biner, in make and function. My friend has Quickwires, I have Hotwires, the Hotwires are better in that the positron biner doesn't get caught on the cable loops of nuts and hexes due to the key-lock nose that it has, that is probably the major functional difference, although other more subtle ones exist.
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redpoint73
Jun 2, 2003, 11:47 AM
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In reply to: Quote: However they're more expensive, weaker when x-loaded... Black Diamond Hotwires crossload strength is exactly same as the Quicksilver carabiner (7 kn).
Pranaguy called it right. The notion that crossload strength of wiregates is lower than regular biners is pure superstition and guesswork. People look at the wiregate and they think its so weak when compared to a regular gate becuse the wire is so small. But look at your regular gate biner. The gate is only as strong as the tiny little pin at the hinge. It breaks at low loads and suddenly. Wiregates deform, absorbing the load as they do so. Thats why wiregate crossload strenth is comparable to a regualr gate.
The ease of clipping can be both a pro and a con. They are so easy to clip, that they can possibly make it easier to UNclip from a piece of pro (as someone else mentioned), or if the rope runs over the gate.
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wlderdude
Jun 2, 2003, 2:11 PM
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Vanny,
What you say about the moment of interia may be true, but I suspect that that factor is a negligible effect.
What makes wiregates not flutter is the way the spring works.
regular biners use a linear spring. Meaning, the more the gate goes in, the more force it applies. So, to hold the gate open, it will take the max force the spring can apply.
Wire gates use springs that are strongest at the gate, instead of weakest. Holding them open is easier. Compare how easy it is to displace the first cm of a regular biner and how hard it is to displace the first cm of a wiregate. You will find it almost impossible to not open the wiregate all the way.
I had always heard that wiregates were stronger, but they are always rated to the same strengths as their solid gate counterparts. I asked somone at black diamond and she asked an engineer. (I would have prefered to talk to the engineer, but oh, well) It is true that wiregates are not any stronger. However, they are TOUGHER in minor axis loading.
This means it will break at the same level of force as a solid gate, but it will take more energy to do so. In other words, wire gates are less brittle in minor axis.
I am a person fan of the Positron. It has more of a wiregate feel than any other solid gate biner out there. I am not sure how non-linear their spring is, but I like it. The snag free nose is the best thing to happen to biners since aluminum.
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canadianclimber
Jun 2, 2003, 10:54 PM
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Koto, i was just referring to the individual biners not the entire quickdraw as i think you're talking about. I'm sure that the hotwire quickdraw is better because it has a positron instead of an enduro, but for just the individual biner, I don't know why the hotwire is more expensive than the quickwire.
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mbondvegas
Jun 2, 2003, 11:20 PM
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I use the positron/hotwire QD's
They are the best combo available at the moment.
The positron doesn't snag on bolt hangers when clipping or cleaning.
And the hotwire is the easiest to clip biner since "The Fin". Man, I wish BD still made those!!!
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vanny37
Jun 2, 2003, 11:57 PM
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Wlderdude,
You bring up a good point about the springs on the 'biners; however, I believe that it is still the inertia of the gate that allows/disallows it to flutter.
I had alluded to how the springs would affect gate flutter in my first message:
In reply to: when you smack that 'biner against the rock, the spring holding the gate in (assuming the springs on regular biners are comparable to wire gates) has to exert 3.625 times more force to stop the gate's motion (F=m*a).
Here I had not even considered getting this far into the thought process because I thought it might be too complicated, but here we are, so lets give it a shot!
First, a couple assumptions. The linear springs used by most regular biners and the 'spring' used by most wire gates are probably different in how you would model them in physics. I don't know how to, so we'll assume they act similar to normal coil springs; I'm banking that this will be close enough. However, they are different in principle. The regular 'biners just use a linear spring; pretty simple. The wire gates use the torsion of bending the gate to cause a force to keep them closed. This could be pretty different, so keep that in mind. (Could we get a mechanical engineer in here?! :wink: )
Now a normal, ideal coil spring, one that would act perfectly in a perfect world (take away the abilities of real springs to overstretch, etc) will exert a force equal to a spring constant and distance stretched.
F = k*x
k is dependant on the properties of the spring.
Don't forget, force equals mass times acceleration!
F = m*a.
Now lets say that you drop a biner so that it hits a rock on its spine. That 'biner will experience a force equal to the deceleration of it stopping from falling on the rock times its mass. Assume that no other force is lost in friction, sound, etc. When that biner stops, the gate will still want to rotate due to its inertia. (Again, prove this to yourself by doing spacecowboy's store trick). Now since the biner has stopped, but the gate is still moving, we'll assume (and this should be close) that the gate will have to experience the same force the main portion of the biner experienced relative to its mass. So the gate is now experiencing F = mass of gate * acceleration. The spring will now have to 'absorb' that force and will therefore move, as F = k*x.
We can now say
m*a = k*x
as the force from the acceration of the 'biner stopping must equal the force the spring exerts to stop the gate from swinging, otherwise the gate would remain open after a fall.
Subsequently,
x = (m*a)/k.
Now (sorry, this is getting long, but I gotta do it, for the love of the game :wink: ) if you remember from the first post, my data I found on the biners had regular gates at 3.5 times the mass of wire gates.
A regular gate then, could possibly move x distance by this:
x = (3.5m * a) / k
This assumes the same acceration and spring characteristics on both 'biners.
And a wire gate would move a distance:
x = (m*a)/k
Again, the regular 'biner's gate moves 3.5 times farther than the wire gate's. Gate Flutter.
We can now argue which 'biners have stiffer springs... I have a regular gate OP Omegalite 4.0 thats got a gate stiffer than the ratings used to be at Seneca. And I have a Stubai wire clip thats looser than your local whore. Both are the same age and somewhat similar 'biners except for weight obviously. And they still pass the "spacecowboy flutter" test with the wiregate barely moving even with the regular biner (in my case) having the stiffer spring from what I can feel.
I still think the inertia of the gate will cause gate flutter.
In reply to: What makes wiregates not flutter is the way the spring works. regular biners use a linear spring. Meaning, the more the gate goes in, the more force it applies.
And the usual disclaimer... I think this is right, but don't quote me; but I'm willing to bet its in the ballpark!
And please, anyone who really knows, tell! I'm a Mining Engineering Student, I just dig rocks! :wink:
In reply to: damn vanny37...talk about a physics major in his element. |
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pico23
Jun 3, 2003, 12:17 AM
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In reply to: Pros: They are lighter, easier to clip, and stronger Cons: Might be a little more expensive
Ditto!!! This guy is on the money. Oddly enough while we might pay more for a wiregate they actually cost less to make and are more simple in design then a standard gate.
I'd say the biggest con is that newer climbers tend to look at them and say, "how can that flimsy wire be just as strong as a gate?"
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pico23
Jun 3, 2003, 12:26 AM
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In reply to: Dug back through the physics stuff for a little hard evidence on why wire gates flutter less. Here are some basics, don't quote me on this, but its in the ballpark. Gate flutter is less because of the Moments of Inertia of the gates.
Cool post. Thanks for explaining what we all sort of knew only didn't quite go through the trouble of figuring out just why. Sometimes you need to get technical to simplify :wink:
BTW, my partner has stubai biners (wires) and those things have almost no spring tension yet don't flutter with the standard instore gate lash test, or the on rock yank on a chock test. Which would lead me to believe gate inertia has more to do with it then spring tension.
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vanny37
Jun 3, 2003, 11:56 PM
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Thanks!
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drector
Jun 4, 2003, 12:45 AM
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Didn't see mention of the con but maybe I just missed it:
Wire gates are thinner and more prone to cutting through the rope if the gate gets cross-loaded.
I'm not sure if this is something to worry about since it is so unlikely but I have seen it mentioned elsewhere. I think the pros way outweigh the con.
Dave
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jt512
Jun 5, 2003, 7:04 PM
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In reply to: Speaking of quickwires vs. hotwires, I don't uderstand why hotwires are more expensive. According to the black diamond website, quickwires are exactly the same strength (25-9-7), 3 grams lighter, bigger rope bearing surface, and only have 3mm smaller gate opening. I don't know why you would buy hotwires over quickwires, unless I'm missing something. Here's the site if your interested: http://www.bdel.com/gear/rock/biners.php
The hotwire costs more because it is a larger biner. The hotwire has a larger gate opening, so it will be easier to clip than the quickwire. The trade off is weight.
-Jay
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jt512
Jun 5, 2003, 7:06 PM
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In reply to: Wire gates are thinner and more prone to cutting through the rope if the gate gets cross-loaded.
This is incorrect. It has been tested in the lab and shown to be false. Wire gates will not cut your rope.
-Jay
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cedk
Jun 5, 2003, 7:22 PM
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Canadian:
Hotwire has shrouded gate. Quickwire doesn't.
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petsfed
Jun 5, 2003, 8:19 PM
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Good old Livewire. I have precisely 1 and wish I had more. That's a quality krab right there.
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