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What do you bring as a second rope for full length raps?
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tkambitsch


Jun 9, 2003, 8:18 PM
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What do you bring as a second rope for full length raps?
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My partner and I are looking to lighten our load. We generally climb on one 10.5 rope and bring a second 10.5 rope for full length raps. One of us drags the second rope on lead or one of us packs it. Neither of us find this very fun.

I know some some of you bring 7mm static lines, but I like the reassurance of having a dynamic rope available for unexpected situations such as climbing to retrieve a stuck rope.

I've been looking at the Bluewater 9.3 Dominator. Any thoughts?


deadfish


Jun 9, 2003, 8:35 PM
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Went through decision last year, decided to climb with doubles. After all, if you are gonna take another rope with you up the climb, why not get some use out of it. Great on wandering routes. Great for climbing with three. Great for full-length rappels and great to have another dynamic rope around if/when you do something stupid. Great for equalizing distributed anchor systems. There's all kinds of threads on here that talk about the benefits, and some good info on tradgirl and searchable on the web, too.

I think the "complexity" of belaying with doubles is really overrated. Just takes 5 mins or so to get used to. Rope management is really not much of an issue, just treat them like a single rope at belays. To separate them for rappel, you and the second each take a rope and flake them apart at the same time. No tangles. I use 8.5mm Mammut Genesis, BTW. Seems to work fine.


pico23


Jun 9, 2003, 10:43 PM
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I prefer doubles as well but only if there is a chance of rock fall or on wandering routes or harder routes (for me) with marginal protection. for a fairly straight climb with good gear I don't see the advantage vs. the clusterfvck potential. But that is partly because my partners don't love doubles so I tend to just go with my singles. If my partners liked them I'd climb with them all the time as they are safer and cut rope drag down and allow longer rappels without trailing a rope.

I've read about a few fatalities with ropes of very different diameters. The thinner rope feeds faster. I generally like to keep them within a millimeter (say 9.6 and 10.5). I also don't like mixing static with a dynamic because of feeding problems like what I listed above. Besides why not have two ropes you can lead on if something happens to one? But you said that already.

Just trail the second rope if you only need it occasionally. I usually have the second do it but if you are trading leads that can be a problem if you find you need two ropes all the time then definitely look into half ropes. I agree with the 5 minute learning curve for belaying. Avoiding kinks and tangles and knots in the skinny doubles is harder though.


pirate


Jun 9, 2003, 11:41 PM
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Just a word to the wise when your doing your research make sure you fully understand what the difference between a half rope, twin ropes and double ropes are. Some talk as if they are all the same when they most definitely are not.
I personally use different rope set ups for different climbs ie I love twins for alpine and ice.
The point was already made but for me, the right track is having redundancy and arming myself with versatile equipment ie I don't carry a single carabinier that is non load bearing (none of these accessorii type hell even the boot laces i use is rated cord )
Think about what set up will be most redundant and versatile for your needs on the types of climbs you like to do.
Hell thats just my two cents :wink:


drkodos


Jun 10, 2003, 12:15 AM
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Lately I've been climbing on a 70m X 10mm and trailing, no carrying in a coil is more exact, a 5 mm zip line that is used as a "pull-line" when rapping on the single 10mm.

As for ropes getting stuck, I say avoid it....... :wink:

Good for moving very fast and light and gives the ability to do Epinephrine in less than 12 pitches, instead of the 19 depicted in the guidebook.


pico23


Jun 10, 2003, 12:36 AM
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Just a word to the wise when your doing your research make sure you fully understand what the difference between a half rope, twin ropes and double ropes are. Some talk as if they are all the same when they most definitely are not. :wink:

Half and double are the same. Double is the older term (or is it half). Ah, I don't know but they are the same. Twins are, well, twin ropes. When you purchase your rope look at the rope ends. A double or half rope should have a 1/2 symbol on it denoting a half rope. A twin rope will have a infinity symbol. Singles have a cirlced (1). I'm not really sure of the advantages to twins other then two ropes are less likely to cut then one and you can rap 200 feet on a single rappel. However, you lose the rope drag advantage and the impact force advantage with twins that you get with doubles.


apollodorus


Jun 10, 2003, 12:51 AM
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Whatever your second rope choice is, keep this in mind:

Put the stiffer rope through the rap slings. The knot will stop against the slings as you go down, and not allow the rope to slip and saw through them.

If you put the stretchy rope through the slings, as you descend it will pull through the slings to equalize the loads on the ropes. This is because the stretchy rope has to extend to take the same load as the not-so-stretchy rope. This causes it to slip and saw through the slings.


dirtineye


Jun 10, 2003, 12:59 AM
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Double ropes. Double ropes.

They rock. They rock.

The advantages seriously outweigh the problems.

Yes to what the other double rope lovers have said.

If you hate rope drag, you'll love doubles!

I'm using mammut genesis 8.5 dry 60 m, chose em after a lot of research and am in love with em.

Here is a rope that is dual rated, as both twin and double(half):
http://www.pmirope.com/sport/pmiropes/dynamic/halftwin-8_1verglas.html

Beware bending ropes of different material, stiffness and diameter together!


brutusofwyde


Jun 10, 2003, 11:00 AM
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make sure you fully understand what the difference between a half rope, twin ropes and double ropes are. Some talk as if they are all the same when they most definitely are not.
I personally use different rope set ups for different climbs ie I love twins for alpine and ice.
The point was already made but for me, the right track is having redundancy and arming myself with versatile equipment ie I don't carry a single carabinier that is non load bearing (none of these accessorii type hell even the boot laces i use is rated cord )
Think about what set up will be most redundant and versatile for your needs on the types of climbs you like to do.
Hell thats just my two cents :wink:

Second all of that.

To further confuse the issue,
Currently there is one double rope (Beal Ice Line, approx. 8.1mm) that can also be used in twin mode. I believe it is the lightest double on the market. Nurse Ratchet and I use that for our backcountry lead rope.

regarding redundancy and versatility: Doubles if we will either be climbing with packs or carrying no packs.

If we are climbing long (Grade V or VI) and hard (near my limit & carrying walk-off shoes, water, food in the pack and climbing stuff I wouldn't want to lead or follow with a pack) I go with a UIAA single for lead and trail a single 8-9mm UIAA half rope as a second cord. This acts as the second rope for raps and is used as a pack haul line on the crux pitches.


troutboy


Jun 10, 2003, 11:12 AM
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IJust trail the second rope if you only need it occasionally. I usually have the second do it but if you are trading leads that can be a problem...

Also a problem when the rope catches in the crack 20 feet up the pitch and you need to downclimb/lower to get it unstuck, or when a carelessly trailed rope knocks rocks down onto parties below or nearby. If you elect to have the second trail the rope (as many do), take precautions to avoid the potential pitfalls.


TS


sspssp


Jun 10, 2003, 11:21 AM
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Doubles or twins, have advantages and I have used them on and off. However, even after using them for a long time, they still slow me down. If you are belaying at a ledge where you can just stack both together as if stacking a single rope, they aren't too bad. For hanging belays, they take longer. In order to reduce time lost to tangles, I usually take a large rope bag and stuff the ropes into it when belaying the follower. But, on easy terrain, my partner is often waiting for me to pull the rope up. It's hard to pull double lines up and stuff quickly. Looping doubles over a sling or tie in isn't worth the tangle, in my opinion. Belaying with an auto-block, like the B-52 helps in that the rope won't slip down and it will automatically catch the second (even without your hand on the brake).

Going back to the original question, if I am dragging a rope up just to use for raps. I drag up a 8.1 mm dynamic. It is light and if something happens to my lead line, I still have a dynamic rope to climb on. No, it is not rated for use as a single lead line, but we are only talking, emergency, last resort use (I would rather lead on it than solo). If you take a static, you sure can't use that for an emergency lead.

If you have mixed sized ropes, you can keep them from slipping by squeezing them together hard when rapping. Be careful that you don't let them slip too much. You can end up with one end much higher or melting the rap sling.


crotch


Jun 10, 2003, 11:39 AM
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tradklime


Jun 10, 2003, 11:59 AM
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I'm not really sure of the advantages to twins other then two ropes are less likely to cut then one and you can rap 200 feet on a single rappel. However, you lose the rope drag advantage and the impact force advantage with twins that you get with doubles.

The new Beal ice twin ropes have a combined impact force similar to a single line.

I'm a big fan of half ropes, but recently have come to favor twins. I've decided that I prefer the lower weight of twins to the rope drag advantage of half ropes.

Also, note that half ropes are not tested to 80 kg falls (only 55 kg), so if you only have one piece between you and the ground, both should be clipped (resulting in an impact force issue) or you should have two pieces.

While half ropes are not that complicated, when you are scetched and jammed up, it seems to come into play.

Just my 2 cents :)


brutusofwyde


Jun 10, 2003, 12:24 PM
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Epinephrine goes in 9 pitches with a 60m rope. The best topo out there for this route is on the NAClassics CD-Rom available from http://www.naclassics.com. Basically link every two pitches.

The three pitches off the top of Black Tower link as one pitch with a 60m if long slings are used to eliminate drag & stretch the lead.

Fun romp.


vegastradguy


Jun 10, 2003, 12:33 PM
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One of two different options, although I'm considering doing the pull line thing as drkodos suggests.

1) The leader trails a 60 m 10.2mm dynamic line. The weight isnt an issue, I've never even noticed it when leading.

2) The leader trails a 70m 9mm static line. While weight isnt an issue with this monster, its length and thickness are. This thing was a bitch to manage. Like coiling spaghetti. ugh.


drkodos


Jun 10, 2003, 2:01 PM
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One of two different options, although I'm considering doing the pull line thing as drkodos suggests.

Not trying to be a stickler, but I didn't really suggest it, although I have been doing so myself on most of the longer routes here in the Red Rock canyons.

I hardly ever recommend people do as I do! :?

On a serious note, if one does use the zippy/coil/pull line, I recommend really getting to know a variety of knots, bends, blends, and rope folds so that one uses the proper method to ensure safety.

Note to Vegastradguy: When can we get together and do some climbing?


ricardol


Jun 10, 2003, 3:23 PM
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i usually use one the 2 options

1 - if climbing with only 1 other person .. then we climb on a single rope and bring a 8.6 x 60m second rope to join for raps. (usually stuffed in a backpack)

2 - if climbing in a team of 3 then we climb on double ropes (8.6x60m)

-- ricardo


pico23


Jun 10, 2003, 3:37 PM
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IJust trail the second rope if you only need it occasionally. I usually have the second do it but if you are trading leads that can be a problem...

Also a problem when the rope catches in the crack 20 feet up the pitch and you need to downclimb/lower to get it unstuck, or when a carelessly trailed rope knocks rocks down onto parties below or nearby. If you elect to have the second trail the rope (as many do), take precautions to avoid the potential pitfalls.


TS

Good point. Perhaps don't trail it if there are other parties below you and just use half/double ropes. Personally, I avoid climbing where other parties are even around me. Weekdays and obscure routes are key. Nothings worse then sharing a cliff with someone even if it is a big cliff :D .


pirate


Jun 11, 2003, 12:52 PM
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Just a word to the wise when your doing your research make sure you fully understand what the difference between a half rope, twin ropes and double ropes are. Some talk as if they are all the same when they most definitely are not. :wink:

Half and double are the same. Double is the older term (or is it half). Ah, I don't know but they are the same. Twins are, well, twin ropes. When you purchase your rope look at the rope ends. A double or half rope should have a 1/2 symbol on it denoting a half rope. A twin rope will have a infinity symbol. Singles have a cirlced (1). i'm not really sure of the advantages to twins other then two ropes are less likely to cut then one and you can rap 200 feet on a single rappel. However, you lose the rope drag advantage and the impact force advantage with twins that you get with doubles.
First off let me say that you probably have a good understanding of the differences and technique right? But some don't and that is the point one more thing okay Im not trying to split hairs here but FYI actually two half ropes make up a set of double ropes and a single double is in fact a 1/2 rope. However now most just go off the term double ropes and use them in pairs. a single "1/2" rope is used in the same way Doubles are however the rope is tie into the 1/2 way point for one climber and the other two ends tied in direct to the other climber it is then used as you would double ropes. ( of course your rope is only 1/2 the length of when it is used as a single ) this technique works well when you have a looong single dynamic suited for this use (Im not going to get into the criteria right now) Plus in days gone by it was a lot easier to get ropes off the spool so you could get what you were looking for in the appropriate length. say a 120-140m which would give you a usable "1/2" rope of ...well 1/2 the length 60-70m less tie in length.
I could go on in more depth but basically they are simular and now most people just use doubles for the same application,except for some of us krusty climbers who still know when its wise to use the 1/2 rope over doubles, again it depends on what you require.
One more thing; the point is, when your first trying to figure out what you need you really need to do your homework and figure out what options there are and how to use them to see if thats what you want versus just getting info off a forum or asking the local yokel at the climbing shop. (no offence to the few at climbing shops that actually know what there talking about...Its nice when you find one but Ill tell you there a rare breed.... at least in every shop Ive ever been to in...lets just say since some of you were still tied into your mommy :wink: )
Although......I could be some on line @ss that knows $h!tt about klime-ing
cheers


angelaa


Jun 12, 2003, 10:38 AM
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climb with Double ropes. .
the safety factor is GREAT when leading a weird route, and you always have 2 full length ropes for any long rap! ** not to mention that you can share they are much lighter weight and you don't have to trail anything on lead and your 2nd doesn't have to follow you up with a rope on thier back!

I have been using doubles for over a year know, and the only time I don't use them is when I am on top rope!
They Rock!


dirtineye


Jun 12, 2003, 10:52 AM
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OK, I was thinking... you guys that don't want to use doubles, but want a second rope, well, why not use twins?

There are twins that will stand 2 sharp edge falls. You use em just like a single, but as with doubles you can share the weight, you have twice as much rap range...

I think I just talked myself into some twins LOL.

But for wandering routes, I'll stick with my neato keen genesis doubles!


tkambitsch


Jun 12, 2003, 1:36 PM
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Thanks for the feedback on the original question. I am still as undecided as ever on what to buy but my understanding of the different options is much greater. I'm tempted to buy set of the dual rated (half and twin) ropes and experiment with the different techniques.

If you are interested, there is a good discussion at tradgirl about the theoretical problems of mixing the half and twin rope techniques.

http://www.tradgirl.com/...advanced.htm#doubles

As a follow up question, are there any unique anchor challenges or techniques when using twin or double ropes. In the last year my partner and I have adopted the "block pitches" technique as described in John Long's Advanced Rock Climbing. I am trying to imagine how I might construct anchors out of two climbing ropes.


dirtineye


Jun 12, 2003, 1:40 PM
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Double ropes tie up as one single does. The atomic clip and the bowline on a bight work the same. Just remember there are now two loops, one from each rope, adn you ahve to be sure you do the same thing to both loops.

I have not tried that double figure 8, the one that yo ucan equalise easily betewwn the two loops, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work the same.


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