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moss1956
Jun 14, 2003, 4:49 AM
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June 3 a brick sized piece fell forty feet, being dislodged by pulling a rope through and hit my climbing partner on the head. Luckily he was wearing one of those petzl helmets. It punched a hole in the helmet, but only scratched his head. We climbed the next day... with a new helmet.
If better protection comes along, I would use that, but for the time being, I will WEAR A HELMET.
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fo_d
Jun 14, 2003, 5:07 AM
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I wear a helmet while leading (sport or trad) but after what happened today I'll be wearing one on belay more often form now on:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=33446&forum=27
Les
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 14, 2003, 5:14 AM
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moss1956
the rope didn't knock the rock down you did.(assuming you were leading)
fod
don't place cams behind rotten blocks
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alee
Jun 14, 2003, 5:22 AM
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I have been climbing for about 10 years, sometimes wear a helmet, sometimes don't. Anybody who can't wear a helmet and climb safely at the same time probably wouldn't notice if their IQ dropped a few points anyway. Anybody who thinks wearing a helmet makes them "safe" is wrong --- they make you safer. I notice nobody has taken Jumpinrock up and given an example of a climber worse off because they were wearing a helmet.
By the way, I am not a racing fan, but wasn't Dale Earnhart (sp?) a very experienced race driver?
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curt
Jun 14, 2003, 5:31 AM
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In reply to: I have been climbing for about 10 years, sometimes wear a helmet, sometimes don't. Anybody who doesn't wear a helmet because they think that wearing one will make them careless probably wouldn't notice if their IQ dropped a few points anyway. Anybody who thinks wearing a helmet makes them "safe" is wrong --- they make you safer. I notice nobody has taken Jumpinrock up and given an example of a climber worse off because they were wearing a helmet. By the way, I am not a racing fan, but wasn't Dale Earnhart (sp?) a very experienced race driver?
Sure. You might also want to read your horoscope before going climbing--in order to be sure that you will be safe that day.
Curt
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collegekid
Jun 14, 2003, 6:37 AM
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why the hell are you people arguing about this?
My opinion:
1. Wearing a helmet should DEFINITELY be a personal decision (people being forced to wear helmets while climbing? that's b.s.). Believe me, i was pissed when they passed a helmet law for anyone under 18 riding a bike in Ca. (i hate wearing helmets while riding my bike.) Now i'm 20, so it's up to me.
2. Helmets are going to help you more than hurt you (duh).
3. No one is perfect, i.e. no one can be perfectly safe all the time, i.e. no one has the excuse that they climb so safely that they do not need a helmet.
I had never hit my head while riding my bike before...this is why i never wore a helmet. I figured, i'm experienced and very careful, how am i ever going to hit my head? Well, one time, i was riding my bmx bike across campus to go to the climbing wall....i was going kinda fast, and swerved to avoid some girl that got in my way...when i went to pedal, the chain popped off and i went over the bars. I hit my head (luckily not too hard). I hit it hard enough to leave a small (seemingly permanent) bump on my eyebrow. Guess what i did following this incident? First, i tightened my chain. Second, i rode more carefully. Third, i bought a helmet for times when i felt like PUSHING MY LIMITS and risk losing control.
Obviously, if i had been maintaining my bike properly, the chain wouldn't have been loose in the first place and i wouldn't have fallen. But i rode the bike DAILY and was very confident in my ability to negotiate any situation...riding a bike is almost more natural to me than walking...sh!t i grew up on a bike. However, you cannot foresee all situations that may arise.
If you are PUSHING YOUR LIMITS while climbing, then you probably could use all the safety you can get. Otherwise, since nothing can go wrong, you should just freesolo. I mean, if you're truly experienced, and you are on a route that's below your limit, then what's the point of a rope? There are plenty of people that do so. They die young (usually).
Everyone's arguments are valid. However, why can't you just admit the fact that wearing a helmet is safer than not wearing one?
why does everything on this site always become a flame war?
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climbsomething
Jun 14, 2003, 7:25 AM
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collegekid has a point. camoaero has a point. alpnclmbr1 has a point. curt has a point. dirtineye has a point, and by god, somewhere in there drkodos has a point.
I don't really have a point myself though... ha
In reply to: why does everything on this site always become a flame war? |
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raindog
Jun 14, 2003, 8:23 AM
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GROUP HUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:D
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hooker
Jun 14, 2003, 6:24 PM
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In reply to: [* if I am climbing with someone, I expect them to wear a helmet. They are holding my life in their hands and would appreciate them staying conscious. ]
Hey angelaa...
The only reason your belayer would need to wear a helmet is if you were the one dropping rocks onto them.
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: why the hell are you people arguing about this? Everyone's arguments are valid. However, why can't you just admit the fact that wearing a helmet is safer than not wearing one? why does everything on this site always become a flame war?
Everyone's arguments are not valid. Most are fallacious.
Wearing a helmet is not always safer.
That is the point. And that is why your argument is fallacious.
You state above that it is a "fact" that wearing a helmet is safer. This is not the case. This may be the case if you take info from the manufacturer. Try talking to an Actuary, instead. Do you know what one is?
According to the 3 (three) I spoke with, statiscally wearing a helmet puts you into a greater risk group....no lie. People climbing with helmets suffer 4 times the head injuries that people that don't wear them do. This figure comes directly form actuary tables used to compute insurance policies for high risk sports such as climbing.
Now why is this the case (and it is)? It's because you brain bucketers don't use your brains to think with.
All you people are blindly arguing in favor of helmets with no understanding of what the actuallities really are.
I recently had a party climb right up under the second on a climb I was guiding. When I cautioned the lower party that climbing that close was dangerous if we were to dislodge something they proudly stated: That's why I'm wearing this helmet.
A clear case of the helmet doing the thinking, and not the brain inside.Nothing like putting on ahelmet, then rationalizing assinine behavior.
Get a helmet and join the "Now I don't have to think" club.....
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hooker
Jun 14, 2003, 7:11 PM
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In reply to: This may be the case if you take info from the manufacturer. ....
Excellent point.
Most people don't realize that all the safety data they quote is from people that are trying to sell you helmets!
It's called propaganda.
Petzl has a vested interest in getting you to believe a helmet is safer.
The Magazines and their "reviews" have a vested interest.
If you believe those magazine reviews, let me show you some real estate......Magazine reviews are there to sell you gear. They do not actually critique anything.
A fist size rock will destroy that precious Petzl Helmet and your skull along with it. A best, a helmet might prevent a laceration from a small piece of debris. At best....
Helmets and cragging are not the Reese's Peanut Butter Cups of climbing. They are not two great tastes that go great together. They make no sense being together,
Wearing a helmet at a crag such as the Gunks only sends the message that you turned your brain off a long time ago, and the rest of those concerned about safety, should move as far away from you as possible.
As for this being an attack, it is not. If you think it is, you are one of the brainless ones.
Calling drkodos an idiot? Hardly. I've known the man for almost ten years. An idiot, he is not. He arguments come from the intellect, not emotion. They may be inflamatory, but they are not idiotic. If you cannot comprehend what he or Curt or Alpnclmb are saying, maybe you need to look in the mirror to see the real idiot.
drkodos:
Arrogant......most definitely.
Confident......absolutely.
Ad hominem attacks.....sometimes, but they are funny
One of the best and SAFEST climbers I've known.....yes
(folks, don't buy into his "stage" persona....he is really much different in the "real" world.)
Remember the Buddha:
you may not like the message, but you need to be open to it. People tend to turn off their brains when they hear a message that doesn't fit into their pre-conceived paradigms. When you hear conflicting info, that's the time to pay attention the most!
Suzanne
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collegekid
Jun 14, 2003, 7:13 PM
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nevermind, i'm done.
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curt
Jun 14, 2003, 7:19 PM
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I will take one last crack at making my position clear. If you set out to do a climb, you will fall into one of these three categories:
A) You are knowingly putting yourself into a situation where there is falling debris. If this is the case, wear a helmet. It MAY help.
B) You have the requisite experience and judgement to climb in situations where any type of falling debris is extremely unlikely. If this is the case, a helmet will do you no good.
C) You have got neither the judgement or experience to determine whether you are in a type (A) or type (B) situation. In this case, wear a helmet and hope for the best.
The important point that a few of us have been trying to make is that if you are type (B) above, you are far safer than being in either of the other two groups.
Curt
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jebel_andi
Jun 14, 2003, 7:21 PM
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all ways wear a helmet, there are more things then just loose rock that can fall on your head while climbing; quick draws, protection, rope, maybe even B.A.S.E jumpers?
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 7:30 PM
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In reply to: all ways wear a helmet, there are more things then just loose rock that can fall on your head while climbing; quick draws, protection, rope, maybe even B.A.S.E jumpers?
Chicken little lives!
How can a quick draw just drop out of the sky?
Rope? now, that is funny :lol:
excellent satire there, jebel_andi
as for the direct question above...College Kid( who has since removed his post and question through editing)
yes, I feel safer without one. Period.
They block my vision, which is THE most important sense I have while climbing. Yes, I feel less safe with a helmet, because I am less safe with a helmet.
Did I say I wear one while ice climbing? Yes I did.
Do I wear one while drag racing? Yes.
Do I wear one while cragging? Fvck no...it would be idiotic to do so.
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hooker
Jun 14, 2003, 8:11 PM
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Just noticed that Helmet is spelled wrong in the original thread post...
Is it Helment or Helmet?
Another point awarded to the Helmets are for "people that don't want to use their brain" side of the flame wars.....
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csoles
Jun 14, 2003, 8:15 PM
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In reply to: drkodos: Arrogant......most definitely. Confident......absolutely. Ad hominem attacks.....sometimes, but they are funny
You left out:
Wrong on many technical details....unquestionably.
The fact is that drkodos is no better about regurgitating myths as those he attacks. He really hasn't done his homework on helmet standards and testing procedures. Citing actuary tables is a simple dodge and quite meaningless. Wearing or not wearing a helmet is a personal choice but base it on facts, not his antilogic.
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 8:23 PM
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incorrect.
Wearing a helmet makes a statement as to what type of climber one is.
If you know anything about actuararial work, you know that these tables are most highly accurate, and refelct absolutely the risk/liabilty inherent to insurance companies in their effort to have risk transfered.
Please educate me as to what FACTS are wrong.
Helmets being safer is an opinion.
Numbers may not tell the whole story, but statistics never lie. Only the people that use them do.
I have done my homework. Many times and very thoroughly. I own five, yes five helmets. Sometimes when I guide, both the client and myself wear a helmet. It depends on the situation.
I have looked at hundreds of pages of empirical evidence, have you?
I worked in the outdoor equipment business for thirteen years, have you?
I spent my own $$$ buying products to help conduct independent tests by professional engineers, have you?
I have designed and implemented my own products (pins and large cams)in opening new routes on large walls, have you?
I know that the answers to some of these questions may be yes....so, please cite specific examples of my myth regurgitation.
I have not made ad hominem attacks. I attack the idea that wearing a helmet is safer.
It is not.
Sometimes it is.
The statement that wearing a helmet is safer is an absolute. There are no absolutes in climbing safety.
If you cannot separate yourself from your ideas than you are arguing from emotion, not intellect. That seems to be the case with most of the poeple that post here. They marry themselves to their own ideas, and if their idea is attacked, they cry foul!
As George Harrison (Within You, Without You, "Sgt Pepper") wrote/sang:
And the people
They hide themselves behind a wall
of illusion
never glimpse the truth
untill it's far to late
then they pass away....
are you one of them?
Mr Soles (product reviewer and pimp of the manufacturers) I read your reviews, and your "handy" little tips. Some are helpful. Many are banal and insulting. Am I allowed to critique your work, or do I need permission from a higher athority? I do not attack you for I do not know you, although we may have met in New York a long time ago....certainly not enough for me to judge you.
But your ideas and your pimping of products I can and do judge.
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ambler
Jun 14, 2003, 8:36 PM
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In reply to: I will take one last crack at making my position clear. If you set out to do a climb, you will fall into one of these three categories: A) You are knowingly putting yourself into a situation where there is falling debris. If this is the case, wear a helmet. It MAY help. B) You have the requisite experience and judgement to climb in situations where any type of falling debris is extremely unlikely. If this is the case, a helmet will do you no good. C) You have got neither the judgement or experience to determine whether you are in a type (A) or type (B) situation. In this case, wear a helmet and hope for the best. The important point that a few of us have been trying to make is that if you are type (B) above, you are far safer than being in either of the other two groups.
Yes that's clear enough, so I'll muddy it up again by mentioning that protection from things falling on your head (relevant to points A-C above) is only one of the two main reasons a person might want to wear a helmet. The other reason is that your head might fall on something else, for example if you're so unfortunate as to deck, swing sideways or invert in a leader fall. We might imagine an ideal like type (B) above with respect to falling, but that seems to me less real.
But also to be clear, I'm not advising that everyone else should "Wear A Helment"; I wear a helmet myself only 10% of the time, though with age that seems to be rising. Just noting that the equation contains other variables besides rockfall. We can each make our own calculations.
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 8:43 PM
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In reply to: The other reason is that your head might fall on something else, for example if you're so unfortunate as to deck, swing sideways or invert in a leader fall.
But these are ALL avoidable by human behavior.
Rockfall is really the only "x" factor.
That is why all arguments need to be centered around it. I mean, you could slip down the steps in your house.
Most accidents happen in the bathroom and kitchen at home.
Most HEAD INJURIES happen at home. Do you wear a helmet
there? No. There are many more things that provide much higher danger to your head, but you don't wear a helmet in any of these events.
Mr Soles, do you dispute these Facts that most head injuries happen at home? Or in automobile accidents. Next time I see you driving without a helmet, you get two points removed from your rights to publish advise-o-meter.
The reason people wear helmets when climbing and not in the shower is because they don't think.
They just do what published material tell them to do.
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curt
Jun 14, 2003, 8:45 PM
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ambler,
In reply to: The other reason is that your head might fall on something else, for example if you're so unfortunate as to deck, swing sideways or invert in a leader fall.
Curt
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hooker
Jun 14, 2003, 8:50 PM
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curt/drkodos....
are you guys generating out of the same IP??
:lol:
:wink:
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 14, 2003, 8:59 PM
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In reply to: I notice nobody has taken Jumpinrock up and given an example of a climber worse off because they were wearing a helmet.
In reply to: I recently had a party climb right up under the second on a climb I was guiding. When I cautioned the lower party that climbing that close was dangerous if we were to dislodge something they proudly stated: That's why I'm wearing this helmet. |
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neadamthal
Jun 14, 2003, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: Wearing a helmet is not always safer.
alright then drkodos, if your argument is so sound, let's hear a case where not wearing a helmet was safer. we know the benefits of wearing a helmet, but you haven't really given us reason to think that no helmet is safer.
until you provide this YOUR argument is baseless and thus fallacious.
you make far too many generalizations for your attacks on us 'sissies' to have any effect. you may have tonnes of experience, but this doesn't translate into omniscience. you don't know any of us so you might as well be pissing into the wind.
people are going to be assinine whether they are wearing a helmet or not. that's the way i look at it.
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drkodos
Jun 14, 2003, 9:12 PM
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neadamthal (and others): I am really not trying to be condescending here. Please read and bear with what might be multiple posts that build to a larger idea....
To start we must agree on some seemingly simple things.
First.....
There are only two states of being. There is:
1) Safe
2) Unsafe
Safe is safe.
There is nothing safer then safe.
If you are safe without a helmet, how are you safer with one?
If a helmet obstructs one's view, this could be unsafe.
Are we good here so far are do we need to stop and argue these points?
Not trying to be sarcastic. Sincerely trying to demonstrate, and I will, my points....
we need to agree on definitions and terms before we can go farther...no?
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