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FA'ers Don't Own The Rock!
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Partner rrrADAM


Jun 14, 2003, 8:52 PM
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It's not "slander" Jody... If you told me that about someone, the day you got on their line, I would believe you. This person does not dislike you, but likes you. I do not want to be the reason for "them" becoming you enemy for stating that your set up was unsafe.

The wall is starting to hurt from me beating my head on it, so I am outta this one Jody. Even after 9 pages, you have not entertained the idea that you may be wrong.


\/ Please read quote in my signature below. \/


drkodos


Jun 14, 2003, 8:53 PM
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In reply to:
Jody... Just join the Access Fund, and be part of the solution, instead of wanting to whip out your drill in a National Park, and being part of the problem.

Knowledge is key !!!

If you think there is a solution, you are part of the problem.


extrememountaineer


Jun 14, 2003, 9:11 PM
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It is a lie, does that make any difference?I don't give a crap if someone likes me or not if they are lying about me.


roninthorne


Jun 15, 2003, 6:39 AM
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"scuse me, boyz.... between rounds, here, I'd like to respond to something having to do with the actual subject of this thread... keep those flamethrowers warm, tho... this won't take a minute....


alpnclmber1- If I am the "Mike" in question, let me clarify what seems to be a deliberate misinterpretation-

I am not against rebolting, the replacement of existing gear, in the closest possible proximity to the original placement. I am 100% against unauthorized/unilateral retrobolting- the addition of fixed gear/protection to a route against the FA's wishes, contrary to their original style, or without their knowledge/consent.

(But it was kind of cool, clipping into those homemade hangers and 1/4-inch bolts, in Yosemite and up on POD, out in Red Rocks....)


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2003, 8:42 AM
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I think that extememountainere needs to change his screen name to WE LIKE IT SAFE AND EASY :lol:


alpnclmbr1


Jun 15, 2003, 9:11 AM
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roninthorne,
that was a lazy typo, it should of been Michael, as in mreardon.
He was talking about an anonymous FA'er who maintained that stance.
I was clear on your stance on the issue and agree with it completely.
Dan

ronin wrote
(But it was kind of cool, clipping into those homemade hangers and 1/4-inch bolts, in Yosemite and up on POD, out in Red Rocks....)

or the plumbers tape hangers at Taquitz. One of my personal favorites was backing up bolts with RP placements.


extrememountaineer


Jun 15, 2003, 9:22 AM
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Re: FA'ers don't own the rock [In reply to]
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In reply to:
FA'ers can retrobolt the dangerous misdeeds of their youth. I certainly plan on spending a good deal of time doing just that whenever I get back to Tuolumne. If anyone wants to help out before I get there - get to work and don't let anyone give you any crap about it.

~Alan Nelson

Amen!


alpnclmbr1


Jun 15, 2003, 9:30 AM
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This only applies to his routes
And your taking a personal risk if you don't check with a bunch of locals to. Seriously some people just go off and they are liable to leave you hanging off a bolt without a rope.
d.


bobd1953


Jun 15, 2003, 9:42 AM
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Re: FA'ers don't own the rock [In reply to]
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Alan wrote:
In reply to:
FA'ers can retrobolt the dangerous misdeeds of their youth. I certainly plan on spending a good deal of time doing just that whenever I get back to Tuolumne. If anyone wants to help out before I get there - get to work and don't let anyone give you any crap about it.

I hope you don't take this as invitation to go out and bolt routes that Alan was not in on the FA in Tuolumne. I would hope that Alan is speaking about the routes he did !


tradmanclimbs


Jun 15, 2003, 12:52 PM
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Extreme pussy. If you are so conservitive and christian ,gun toting and all that good stuff why don't you go up there and put up you own G rated easy rt's ground up in good style if you even know what that is?


extrememountaineer


Jun 15, 2003, 9:06 PM
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tradman, not looking to put any routes up. Just don't think FAers personally own public rock. You don't have to be an expert climber to argue climbing philosophy, like Adam implied earlier.

In reply to:
Seriously some people just go off and they are liable to leave you hanging off a bolt without a rope.

Anyone that would "go off" over something like that has no life and suffers from severe emotional deficiencies.


weedy


Jun 15, 2003, 9:14 PM
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Re: FA'ers don't own the rock [In reply to]
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I dont think they should own it either jsut because they got there before me doesn't mean i don't want to try to do the climb in my style. How come when they put up they routes they put a little tag that means I can't do it unless I get permission from the pimp that settin that? Give a brother a break.! some areas we were at the didn't have any gear on the rock or any bolts like at joshua Tree where I was a couple of months ago. Lots of the roues dont have bolts or anything so my homie had to sac-up on that. So he was bitchin about why they didnt have it so if he fell he wouldn';t get hurt and this guy come over and he was a guide there or something and he said because that was the ethics of the place and that sort of like the rules. So I just said word to that.


epicsaga


Jun 15, 2003, 10:23 PM
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no FA's don't [In reply to]
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I strongly support adding bolts to runout bolted routes. I don't support chopping bolts. If you don't want bolts added to your under bolted route, don't bolt it to begin with, or climb on private land. I also support only using modern big stainless bolts and hangars and anchor chains and rap rings. And leave them silver, not camoflouged so we can see them more then 3 feet away. No route should be an R or X. Go buy a Bosch or Hilti drill and get to work. Get off the computer.


extrememountaineer


Jun 15, 2003, 11:02 PM
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Re: no FA's don't [In reply to]
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drector said from another thread:
In reply to:
There is a big difference between being unable to get somewhere and being totally able to do it but unwilling to take the huge risk that another may have taken. The FA may have been taking risks as part of some dysfunctional emotional problem. Who the hell knows.

If the Soviets got a man on the moon first by sacraficing safety, would NASA do the same? Is the Pope less of a man because he tavels in the "pope-mobile" because other high officials have been assasinated? Kenedy didn't have plexiglass. The first cars didn't withstand crashes well and had no seat-belts so should we do without just because they did?

If a large part of the climbing population can do the climb but thinks that the risk is beyond reasonable (different argument there) then they should bolt the climb or at least learn to climb trad if that will provide the level of safety needed. All of this of course requires rational thinking and minimal impact, etc...

The FA does not own the route and is not the ultimate authority of how it should be climbed. It is only viewed that way out of respect for the FA and out of tradition (tradition is a sucky *reason* for anything). Many times, the FA climbed dangerously because that was the only way at the time. Runouts to make it dangerous are just ego driven and should not be respected.

That all being said, There are limits and a little runout here and there should be considered normal and expected, especially at the levels that "average" climbers can climb. And a few R and X rated routes doesn't hurt anyone.

If there are similar routes nearby then leave it. If it is a classic and the only route of it's kind in the area then bolt it as minimally as possible to protect from ground-falls, etc...

or not.

Very well said, as the momentum mounts for my side of the argument. :)


epicsaga


Jun 15, 2003, 11:21 PM
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and another thing... [In reply to]
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Putting one bolt per pitch and climbing on that route is basically free soling. On free solos you fall you die. (To be fair I led and simul climbed snake dike, mostly 5.3-5.5 1-2 bolts per pitch and I was mostly OK with it) To all you self righteous traditionalists, do you feel good about sentencing to death (or lifelong brain damage or becoming a quadrapeligic) anyone who slips and falls 100+ feet and explodes like a watermelon on the rocks below because the route was made, and enforced to forever remain, for the next 1000 years, ON OUR PUBLIC LAND, an X by the climbing mafia? Even 5.14 climbers slip and fall sometimes.
If your loved one died on that route would you feel it was justified by ethics? I thought not.
And another thing, this is a climbing forum, not a F**King political, religious or whatever "ism" discussion. No one gives a F**K if someone is or is not Christian, Pagan, American, Russian, heterosexual, gay, pro-gun, anti-gun, meat eating, grass eating, pro life, left handed, pink haired, marilyn manson clone, mod, rocker, conservative, euro american, crippled, rap listening, pierced, tatted, anarchist or libertarian or socialist or owns a surfing one-nutted pit bull named Poofy!!!


extrememountaineer


Jun 15, 2003, 11:30 PM
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In reply to:
And another thing, this is a climbing forum, not a F**King political, religious or whatever "ism" discussion. No one gives a F**K if someone is or is not Christian, Pagan, American, Russian, heterosexual, gay, pro-gun, anti-gun, meat eating, grass eating, pro life, left handed, pink haired, marilyn manson clone, mod, rocker, conservative, euro american, crippled, rap listening, pierced, tatted, anarchist or libertarian or socialist or owns a surfing one-nutted pit bull named Poofy!!!

Now THAT was a rant! :D I'm impressed. Dude, that is just my signature...you going to be okay?


boltdude


Jun 16, 2003, 12:38 AM
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A friend just told me to look at this (LONG) thread. Complex issues, with no "right" or "wrong" answer. As a not-strong climber who's been doing new easier routes in Tuolumne, as one of the main people replacing bolts in Tuolumne for the last few years, and as the main Supertopo guidebook author for Tuolumne, "I'm in the thick of things."

Background: I have personally replaced 251 1/4" bolts in Tuolumne since 1998. In the last 3 years I've done about 10 new routes in the 5.6-10 range, several of which I've immediately retrobolted to make them more fun for my partners and friends. Some still have 40-60' runouts and one has ground fall potential from 90'. This is all HAND DRILLED in hard granite in case anyone is wondering, replacement and new routes.

As far as the quote about "all the easier terrain being taken up" in earlier years, that's a JOKE - look around Tuolumne, with a little hiking there's infinite possibilities. Just look at the sides of Matthes Crest - endless killer moderate lines, few of which would need even a single bolt, some of which have been done but not documented.

I have done some well-protected ("overbolted" in some opinions, "still runout" in others) climbs, the most "controversial" is Shagadelic, a 4-pitch 5.8 on Medlicott, with 10 bolts each on two 150' face pitches. All the Tuolumne locals I talked to were psyched when it went in, and the detractors have been mostly a few non-locals. The main reason it's controversial now is that people (including me) are having second thoughts about the potential traffic drawn to an area that currently sees not too much traffic. The main reason I'm worried about that is potential plant damage on the way up to the cliff (the base of the cliff sees endless avalanches and there's not much worry about damage there). I'm glad I did Shagadelic, since my friends love climbing it, but I have to agree with many that Tuolumne doesn't need more well-protected routes, and I'm not planning on doing more (although I have several "harder" -i.e. 5.10+ & up - routes in mind, if I can get up them...). A few are fine, but if you want more, Owens and Clark and the Dike Wall are so close, why not just go there? I go back and forth on the subject, as do many people.

On the other hand, one thing is clear: I don't think anyone should ever retrobolt another person's route. I find that highly offensive, and came close to chopping "The Boltway", which is an early 1990s route which retrobolted the first half of the first pitch of Eunuch on Stately Pleasure Dome. It hasn't been chopped, although someone flattened and rebent several hangers years ago.

On the other hand, I have retrobolted my own routes several times, usually the same day or within a few days of establishing them. And I accidentally retrobolted (ground-up drilling from stance with a hand drill) a beautiful golden 5.9 dike that a friend of mine had free-soloed previously. I offered to chop it, because I respect climbing traditions and my friends' feelings. My friend declined to have me chop it, but if he changes his mind in the future I will remove my own bolts.

Likewise, despite many rap-bolted routes in Tuolumne, I know that anything that I can climb can be done ground up, and I would never rap-bolt a route in Yosemite/Tuolumne. That's just stealing from someone else in the future who could do the route ground-up. On the other hand, at extreme levels, you'd wreck the rock trying to do routes ground-up from hooks, and I have no problem with very strong climbers rap-bolting hard routes.

I also think hard about whether a potential route would offer something unique and new to the climbing community. I think there are too many very tightly bolted hard routes at the base of Medlicott, approaching grid bolting near the base of the Bachar-Yerian. I think the late 80s/early 90s crowd went overboard in a few spots, and I don't want to see the same happen elsewhere.

So that's my complex 2 cents - respect tradition, never retrobolt other's routes (but I do it to my own routes), a few NEW well-protected routes are cool for Tuolumne (but I'm not planning on doing more easy ones), and the no-brainer: old bolts should be replaced (99% of them can be done in the same holes since 1/4" bolts in Tuolumne pop out VERY easily - freeze/thaw cycles is the probable reason).

And, for anyone still reading, here's some other opinions I've run into on the subject of Tuolumne retrobolting: TM Herbert asked me to add a bolt to South Crack after I chopped the slightly-off-route non-FA 1/4" bolt on the slab (he wanted me to add it about 15' lower on-route). He did the FA of the upper pitches. Others, including pywiack, Steve Gerberding, and Tom Carter, have asked me to add one or two bolts to specific pitches of routes they did (or entirely retrobolt their old ultra-hard-core free solos in the case of pywiack). I haven't, since as Director of the ASCA it'd be bad PR. Plus that, those guys are still around and climbing hard and can do the work themselves, and there are TONS of 1/4" bolts that need to be replaced. Gerberding thinks that some climbs should be left as testpieces, but some climbs, depending on what the FA thinks, should have some bolts added. He said he intends to go back and add bolts to some of his climbs. He was very pissed to hear that someone had added a bolt to the first pitch of his runout testpiece Wienie Roast, yet asked me to add a bolt or two to another of his routes. I think a lot of folks are like him, namely the issue isn't black and white, and it depends on the situation. My main concern after really thinking it through is the potential environmental effect of having tightly protected easy routes drawing lots of traffic. Some places could really be hurt by that, while others would not.

Chris Falkenstein has done at least one retrobolt of his own route: Pirouette Roof, a (reportedly very sandbagged) 5.11c roof, formerly with a 5.10 R/X first pitch with a single bolt. He added around 10 bolts to the first pitch, which is now well-protected, and replaced the 1/4" bolts.

And finally, these issues have been discussed in several Supertopo forum threads. One of the old-timer hard-core folks, Roger Breedlove, has some interesting comments, one of which is that he thinks that they should have added more bolts to easier pitches in the 1970s:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=19716#msg19870

Greg


alpnclmbr1


Jun 16, 2003, 12:46 AM
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epicsaga
where do you get off recommending illegal activities in a public forum?
we are talking about a national park here. The likelyhood that you don't know what I am talking about says something about your level of knowledge.

If climbing in toulumne is so dangerous then why do more people die driving there then climbing there? By your reasoning we obviously should outlaw cars in order to save our loved ones.
on average there are 2.5 deaths per the estimated 25k to 50k climber days in the park per year.
anybody want to find figures for driving or football.

What percentage of those deaths happen on R or X routes. People freesolo all the time in Yosemite, not one of them has died. your arguments just don't match up with the facts.


tradmanclimbs


Jun 16, 2003, 6:12 AM
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alpin; were do you get off saying a stupid thing like no one has ever died free soloing in the park. It makes you sound pretty un informed. Derek Hersey 1993 comes to mind but I am sure ther are others. The long post by the guy from ASB pretty much say's everything that needs to be said on the subject of re bolting etc. Still think extreme mtn is a tool.


fishypete


Jun 16, 2003, 7:25 AM
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I thought the John Dill article on safety in the front of the Yosemite Falcon Guide said there had been no deaths from soloing in Yosemite.

Have I got it wrong?


dingus


Jun 16, 2003, 7:55 AM
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In reply to:
The long post by the guy from ASB pretty much say's everything that needs to be said on the subject of re bolting etc.

And what did he say?

1. Respect tradition (and your elders). Unlike the opening post in this thread, which advocates disrespect as it's core message.
2. Respect local ethics.
3. There is a very active and vocal community of Tuolume Meadows climbers. They give a lot of thought to the state of the sport and the routes there. The local ethic does not arise from a Star Chamber of a select few climbers.
4. Don't retrobolt routes that aren't yours. Simple as that really.
5. Be very cautious in your assumptions about your community.

And I really have some questions for all your retrobolt proponents who feel the Meadows climbs are the result of rampant egotism...

If you can't climb a given route, by what right does your ego assert it should be retrobolted? If you CAN climb it, why do you need to retrobolt it? "Because I want to," or "It's just no fair," are cop outs. I'd like to see an honest answer. Because it's my theory that some of the people who raise this question or advoate the elimination of risk for Tuolumne Meadows climbs do so from a position of envy and insecurity. If you want to make a dent in local consensus you will have to couch your arguments in terms of the community, and eliminate ME ME ME from your arguments.

Cause the meadows climbers I know, almost without exception, love and want to care for the Meadows. But on the other hand, they don't know you, likely never will and they certainly don't care if you never develop the skills to climb there. Most of them are quite happy that you won't.

There is a solution, but it involves work and dedication. Instead of a public cry for 5.7 sport climbs (I honestly and I say this without malice, didn't know sport climbing went that low!) in an area internationally famous for it's bold climbs... (ie. I demand YOU create more 5.7 sport climbs for ME!), instead of that... why not develop the skills and work ethic to create your own... and have the results of your work judged by your peers, much like you attempt to judge those who came before you?

Because if you retrobolters out there actually struck bit to stone on a new line of your own creation and put up a route or two, I suspect your opinions of the situation would quickly evolve. What if someone chopped a route you created, without even have the decency of a discussion with you? What if someone thought so little of your work that they stole the hangers and smashed the bolts? What would you FEEL (not think, FEEL) about that? Now imagine the reverse... that testpiece you established 20 years ago... how would it feel to have some kid who never even heard of your name, oh graybeard, grid bolt it for her personal satisfaction?

If you can't see the parallels, you are blind.

Respect local ethics.

DMT


alpnclmbr1


Jun 16, 2003, 9:28 AM
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In reply to:
alpin; were do you get off saying a stupid thing like no one has ever died free soloing in the park. It makes you sound pretty un informed. Derek Hersey 1993 comes to mind but I am sure ther are others. The long post by the guy from ASB pretty much say's everything that needs to be said on the subject of re bolting etc. Still think extreme mtn is a tool.

Oops, forgot about that one. And yes I was quoting that from john dill's Staying Alive article. Wonder why he wasn't included in the stats?
along those lines has anyone heard of another freesoloer of Hersey's stature that has died freesoloing anywhere?

Anyway I am out of here for a week. Please don't let extreme p even have the temporary appearence of winning this farce of a debate. His stance is so far off base it pisses me off to say the least.

And I don't want people to die, but more bolts is not the answer to that.
d.


kevlar


Jun 16, 2003, 10:24 AM
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pissed on my rock [In reply to]
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who can piss on my rock... :D I marked it first


weedy


Jun 16, 2003, 10:27 AM
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why you gott be that way all vicious and what not about the bolts and protection if it aint there. that dude Derek dies after they wrote that join in the guidebook and i dont think too many other po=eople pitched off since then but the guy told me that ethics were important and each area had some of their own and I should alwas try to follow them becauase they're like the rulez.


fredbob


Jun 16, 2003, 11:09 AM
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Greg and Dingus hit the nail on the head.

In reply to:
why you gott be that way all vicious and what not about the bolts and protection if it aint there. that dude Derek dies after they wrote that join in the guidebook and i dont think too many other po=eople pitched off since then but the guy told me that ethics were important and each area had some of their own and I should alwas try to follow them becauase they're like the rulez.

Is this english? Does it mean anything?


There are opinions and informed opinions, the later seems to be sorely lacking in many of the posts here.

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