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ambler
Dec 3, 2002, 3:59 PM
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Tradguy, you're not an expert on this, you just play one on rockclimbing.com. I wish you didn't sound so positive about things you don't know.
And it's not true that "EVERYBODY" has an agenda, or is engaged in twisting data.
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tradguy
Dec 3, 2002, 5:20 PM
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Quote:Tradguy, you're not an expert on this, you just play one on rockclimbing.com. I wish you didn't sound so positive about things you don't know.
I never professed to be an expert on Global Warming. Hell, I have a degree in Physics and I wouldn't even profess to be an expert on that. I'm just acting as an intelligent, educated individual, presenting arguments and FACTS that were otherwise mis-stated, mis-represented, mis-interpreted, or outright omitted from this debate.
Quote:And it's not true that "EVERYBODY" has an agenda, or is engaged in twisting data.
You are wrong. Everyone has an agenda, whether they admit it or not. For example, you noted sources such as the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency). Can you honestly sit there and tell me they don't have an agenda?? Don't be so naive. Whether it's money, fame, or just the respect of random internet browsers on rc.com, everybody has something that drives them and influences the data they choose to consider, the method in which they present it, and the even the vocabulary they use to describe and interpret it.
In the end, throughout human existance, many theories about the impact of humans upon the global climate have been proven wrong. None has yet to be proven right, and I personally see no reason to catapult civilization back into the stone ages over some contrived doomsday theory of global demise.
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gooch
Dec 4, 2002, 7:04 PM
Post #153 of 228
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Wow! Whata great thread:
My two cents-
1) Fact: No one knows for "sure" that global warming is not being solely caused by our actions, of if they are a natural cycle
2) This is about MONEY! Oil industry=Money. Plain and simple and these people make so much of it they can afford to buy new lungs if the F#$% up the air, so they don't give a rats ass.
3) We should keep the World healthy and clean because it is the right thing to do. Period.
These are for you Jim, while I do share some of your views and think the contributions of the USA go unapreciated a lot of times,
4) Last time I heard the best country in the world to live in was Norway
United Nations Report
At the top of the list in the 2002 report were: Norway, Sweden, Canada, Belgium, Australia, United States, Iceland, Netherlands, Japan, Finland, Switzerland, France, Britain, Denmark, Austria, Luxembourg, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand and Italy.
5) You talk as though the US won WW1 and WW2 by themselves. You should know that:
- Canada has the largest French population that never surrendered to Germany.
- We have the largest English population that never ever surrendered or withdrew during any war to anyone, anywhere.
Namaste
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extrememountaineer
Jun 13, 2003, 3:58 AM
Post #154 of 228
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In reply to: In the end, throughout human existance, many theories about the impact of humans upon the global climate have been proven wrong. None has yet to be proven right, and I personally see no reason to catapult civilization back into the stone ages over some contrived doomsday theory of global demise.
Tradguy...you are brilliant! That is exactly how I feel! Well put.
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vanny37
Jun 13, 2003, 5:06 AM
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Can anyone tell me WHY Earth Day was started??????
I wasn't even born then... but those of you of the LEFT mind seem to forget sooooo easily...
ANYONE????
The answer points to hypocrisy of the environmental movement and to the fact that it ain't an environmental movement... pushing agendas under the guise of saving the environment is pretty tricky!!
There has still not been anyone who can conclusively prove global warming from humans. It hasn't been done... if it has, I'd like to see it. And no, one study doesnt prove shit. There was a blurb in the news the other day saying that warming temperatures were helping to turn some desert areas into fertile lands... you see, you all are looking at the world through a microscope. Pointing to that one tree that just died and screaming, "LOOK! Proof of global warming!! That tree died because of the warm, polluted air." Meanwhile, you forget that the earth naturally cycles in everything. And that trees dying here, doesnt mean more are growing there. "Environmentalists" are probably the people that know the least about the environment! Only because they ignore all the facts and push agendas...
Until the facts are in, I think its a crock a shit!
my $.02 ... and i'll be looking for the answer, if it already hasn't been said and i missed it!
Cheers,
Chris
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overlord
Jun 13, 2003, 5:48 AM
Post #156 of 228
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ok, a simple piece of logic.
CO2 & co are called green house gasses.
greenhouses are made to be warm on the sun.
therefore greenhouse gasses cause increase in teparature.
ok, some more explanation. CO2 is opaque to lower levels of radiation. like infrared. some of you may not know that the air doesnt warm because of direct radiation from the sun. its transparent, e.g. it has almost no light absorbing ability, so light cannot warm it. so what happens is that the sun warms the soil (or water, or whatever) and the soil then warms the air. and the soil also looses a part of its warmth due to infrared radiation into space during the night.
so if CO2 is opaque to infrared, and its level in the atmosphere is increasing, it means less cooling via infrared radiation during the night. this means the soil is warmer in the morning than it should be. dont missunderstand, the effects aren instantaneus, but you know .001C per day gives you 1C in 1000 days.
and whoever said that warm teparatures help in bringing the rain to desserts has something really wrong with hes logic: the deserts are dry because the are warm (at leas most of them, lets ignore some that are because of prymary loss of rain, e.g. are behind high mountain ranges), so if you make the desert a little warmer, do you think the level of condensation will increase???? no, it will decrease!!!!! look into your highschool physics textbook, where it says that warmer air has higher maximum absolute humidity than cooler air. absolute humidity is the weight of water air currently has. relative humidity is its current absolute humidity divided by its max absolute humidity. and rain cant fall until relative humidity is ABOVE 100%, causing condensation, that means rain, snow...
so, the higher the temp, the higher the max absolute humidity, the more water has to be in the air for the rain to fall.
and, evaporation form the see increases relatively little in comparison to max absolute humidity change in 1C. unless you raise the temp high enough for the see to boil. but we all probably dont want to see this, dont we??? right????
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timstich
Jun 13, 2003, 12:07 PM
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In reply to: Thanks Steve! I was beginning to feel outnumbered!
You probably are. Everytime I bring up the subject amongst friends, the Global Warming Litany trots out and one can barely get a word in edgewise. At least some anti-hysteria books are coming out now. As for these scientists peddling their doom, many directly benefit from their scaremongering with obtaining grants to study their ideas. Imagine that? The more sensational you make your claims, the more money you can get. Not to be entirely cynical, of course. Many of these people in general believe in what they are doing.
And as for the Kyoto Protocol, thanks but no thanks.
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timstich
Jun 13, 2003, 12:10 PM
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In reply to: As an interesting side note, this "global warming" business has only been an issue for a few years. Prior to that, people were all deeply concerned about "global cooling" and worried that we were gaining speed toward the next ice age. Check out this article on GLOBAL COOLING from 1975, a further example that people are generally unwilling to accept that our planet undergoes contant change that is not under our control, and that EVERYBODY has an agenda, and will twist and distort any data to reinforce their point and promote their stance.
Oh my god! The Earth is getting cooler! We need to shut down Igloo and Coleman because these companies make the Earth and its perishable foods cooler. Good link there.
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marcel
Jun 13, 2003, 3:03 PM
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It's hard to believe after nearly a year this thread is still going on. It's even harder to believe that some people still think we humans are not contributing to global warming! How many centuries did it take for man to admit the earth was round? I guess it's the same thing. As the saying goes "ignorance is bliss"!
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dwm81281
Jun 13, 2003, 3:35 PM
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Ok I am jumping into this thread about a year late it seems, and if anyone has mentioned these points previously, I apologize for being redundant.
Any data, especially that which is made available to the public, comes with some amount of bias. That bias may come from the author's personal agenda or some other pressure (ie. political, business, peer, etc). Unfortunately we cannot all conduct our own scientific research, but we must keep this in mind when reading and researching these topics. Read both sides of the argument. Not only will it help to understand all the issues at hand, but you'll be better able to defend your argument.
Arguments like this global warming debate will never be resolved because each side has "proof" that the other side won't buy. Thus to repeatedly heap facts, figures, quotes and degrees upon each other is only burying each side in contempt and irritation. If you want to debate, come to the board with enough tolerance to actually hear the other side of the argument before you choose to dismantle it.
Thanks for making the boards enjoyable! Debate on! :idea:
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neadamthal
Jun 13, 2003, 3:46 PM
Post #161 of 228
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In reply to: I ask you this question, what has the rest of the world EVER done for us?
goddamn you're a whiner. why dont you STOP thinking of yourself first and foremost?
In reply to: We had to bail the rest of the world out of two world wars for crying out loud. I DON'T care what the rest of the world thinks.
you're a moron langford. nothing more, nothing less. check your history books. WW1 was all but over when the USA stepped in.
try thinking before you speak. though you may have trouble with that since you don't appear to do any thinking for yourself.
a closed mind cannot think freely. (thanks bruce)
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rob
Jun 13, 2003, 5:14 PM
Post #162 of 228
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In reply to: P.S. Quote I ask you this question, what has the rest of the world EVER done for us? They bomb our towers, they vote against us every chance they get in the UN, they won't turn over terrorists to us because we have the death penalty(France), but who do they call on every time they need help? US! We had to bail the rest of the world out of two world wars for crying out loud. I DON'T care what the rest of the world thinks. We live in the greatest country this world has EVER seen. Do you see people trying to get out? No! They are coming here by the millions! they are fighting to get IN! And we are not using all of our oil...we are using the Arab's oil first. 
I so hope I just missed the sarcasm in this post, either that or I think a new level of ignorance has been uncovered. :p
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timstich
Jun 13, 2003, 5:33 PM
Post #163 of 228
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In reply to: It's hard to believe after nearly a year this thread is still going on. It's even harder to believe that some people still think we humans are not contributing to global warming! How many centuries did it take for man to admit the earth was round? I guess it's the same thing. As the saying goes "ignorance is bliss"!
No one is claiming that humans don't contribute, they just apparantly don't contribute a very significant portion. It's all about perspective, Marcel.
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overlord
Jun 13, 2003, 6:17 PM
Post #164 of 228
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the level of CO2 has risen significantly because of the heavy industry.
and as haevy industry usually means big bucks it wouldnt hurt them too much to install some king of cleaning apparatus. IF someone made them do it. but since the industrials have more money that the enviromentalists, this probably wont happen until its too late and everybody is able to see the damage, the general public falls into hysteria and demands action from the government. and even then there will be some wholl be lobbying to postopne the installment.
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micahmcguire
Jun 18, 2003, 3:45 AM
Post #165 of 228
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wow, what simple garbage. I can't find but a couple educated opinions anywhere here! I do have to agree with Langford on the America bit. We shell out way more than we take in, and that we produce so much of the world's food, give more foreign aide than any other country, harbor more humanitarian organizations than anywhere else in the world, and are a reasonably consistent society based on principals of human rights at the least should grant us some respect.
As far as the global warming trend, the answer is WE DON'T KNOW. Experts in the field who know far more than you or I ever will are having this same childish debate right now. One party says that the warming (which is extremely slow and has been going on since before we were mass-pumping greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere) is part of a natural cycle and the temperature is merely fluxuating like it should. Another party argues that we can't really know that so long as we can't peer into the future, and that the Earth's temerature is increasing disproportionally to what is natural (which, again, is kinda hard to see without looking into the future).
This reminds me of how doctors have been saying "eat meat to lose weight, no eat carbs, no wait-fats, no wait-just lettuce. Jesus tapdancing Christ! Gotta love it.
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supe
Jun 18, 2003, 4:23 AM
Post #166 of 228
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P.S.
From a reply by jmlangford
Quote
We Americans have a God given right to squander all of the oil thats left on the earth in a short time period JUST BECAUSE WE CAN. So therefore WE SHOULD. AND F-THE REST OF THE F---EN WORLD THEY DON'T GET ANY THEY CAN GO PISS UP A ROPE.
I ask you this question, what has the rest of the world EVER done for us? They bomb our towers, they vote against us every chance they get in the UN, they won't turn over terrorists to us because we have the death penalty(France), but who do they call on every time they need help? US! We had to bail the rest of the world out of two world wars for crying out loud. I DON'T care what the rest of the world thinks. We live in the greatest country this world has EVER seen. Do you see people trying to get out? No! They are coming here by the millions! they are fighting to get IN! And we are not using all of our oil...we are using the Arab's oil first.
AND NOW MY REPLY-
Iwould like to tell you first of all that i am an american mr. langford and that i have at times shared your point of view. But to tell you the honest truth i have never fought in any world wars, never fought terrorists, and have unfortunatley done never done anything significant for america, the world, or really even for my local community. Just being born an american does not mean i have played some grand role in the world, just that i have maybe a bit more potential than others to do so because of the cushy circumstances i've been born into. I can honestly say when i say my prayers before going to bed that i thank god i was born an american simply because i am to much of a wimp to handle it anywhere else....
On the other hand, i, when i am old enough to vote will vote republican, not enviromentalist or even democratic. I don't really believe the whole global warming thing. My mom drives a huge old van because we have eight kids, not because she wants to mess up the ozone or heat the world up to 20,0000 plus degrees. so umm chill. americans make mistakes, so do the french, the british, russians, chinese etc.... We all have our psychos, so as reasonably normal people here on rc.com lets try and be sensible to each other rather than yelling ourselves hoarse over some forum that will probably have little or no effect on the world.
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collegekid
Jun 18, 2003, 5:15 AM
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In my opinion, America should quit fu king around and just nuke the rest of the world. Seriously. Well, first we should take over all the rest of the countries, and take all their money and jewels and stuff, and THEN nuke them. The way i see it, America is strong enough to survive on its own. We only contribute a third of the world's CO2....therefore, if we nuke the rest of the world, well, there goes 2/3 of the pollution. Then we'd reduce global warming by a lot (if it even exists that is). Either way, we'd be better off without the rest of the world, and be able to live in peace for once.
Nuke the world = World peace.
I'm sick of people b tching about things in general, actually. If i can afford to buy a hummer for commuting to work, i should. It is my right. It's also my right to own guns....i love guns. I have a shot gun, a semi-automatic rifle, and a couple of handguns that i enjoy to shoot things with occasionally. So get off my land. And i like to eat meat...which is also my right. I like to eat steaks, chicken, lamb, squirrel, or whatever else gets in the way of my gun. Or my hummer. So back off and quit complaining about "the environment" and "global warming." Sh!t, what has the environment ever done for me in the last 5 minutes? Nothing. I earn my own living, and get no help from nobody.
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coldclimb
Jun 18, 2003, 5:19 AM
Post #168 of 228
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LOL this topic is crazy. From Global warming being insignificant to a heated statement about how we should warm the whole globe! :D :lol:
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kevlar
Jun 18, 2003, 3:40 PM
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Let it be known...my daughters are doing all they can to preserve the ice climbs...by leaving the refrigerator door open an looking inside for extended periods of time...
I hope we notice a difference soon...with the ice climbs...as my energy bill is going through the roof...
rock on...opps I mean Ice on....
John 8)
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singlespeed
Jun 20, 2003, 3:08 AM
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Let's see WMA's not quite positive if they have them so let's bomb the crap out of Iraq...just in case. A possibility exists that we are contributing to the warming of the globe, which could have some really harsh consequences and completely change life on earth as we know. Do we sign the Kyoto treaty to save our butts...just in case? Nah, wouldn't want to hurt big oil :roll:
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collegekid
Jun 20, 2003, 3:49 AM
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i say, do whatever is best for the corporations. That way, they will have more profits, and our economy will be better. Since a better economy automatically translates to better lives for us all, this is the obvious choice.
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micahmcguire
Jun 20, 2003, 11:31 PM
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what I think some people fail to understand here is that its not the "greedy corporation" that are preventing things like electric cars from becomeing popular, its the consumer. There is no market for electric cars, or for that matter a great number of things that are more environment-friendly. Don't blame big oil for the fact that everyone is still driving SUV's. Can you blame them for trying to meet the demand for their products? Hell no! Its the average consumer who decides "I think this Chevy Tahoe looks more manly than this Honda Hybrid-so I will spend more money on this gas-guzzling SUV to stoke my own sense of libido or god-knows-what instead of going the eco-friendly route of buying a perfectly good hybrid automobile that is 3 times as cost efficient." As long as you guys all have Range Rovers and Ford F250s and the like, don't preach about the evils of "big oil." They are just trying to meet YOUR demand. Its not their fault, its YOUR fault. So quit trying to blame BP and other giant oil corporations for the worlds problems and start realizing that they are just trying to get by (and make some serious money) in an oil-driven market. The market has to change first, then the buinesses adapt. It can't be done any other way.
So, until you guys go out and buy a car that is gas-efficient or is reliant on an alternative energy source, quit your bitchin and realize that we ALL are the problem, not just some "greedy, evil fat-cat oil tycoon" who is "trying so desperately to keep alternative energy from coming to the common man." The supply follows the demand.
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micahmcguire
Jun 20, 2003, 11:35 PM
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PS-anything that hurts big oil will hurt the consumer very directly. Anything that limits or squelches the amount of money the "big oil conglomerates" make translate directly into increased prices on oil and oil products. Wanna pay 2.50$ a gallon (sooner rather than later)? I sure don't.
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phreakdigital
Jun 21, 2003, 12:32 AM
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The ancient greeks i am sure thought they mattered as much as we think we do today...although everyone complains about bolting and ethics and cleaning up your trash and not harming the earth...which i agree with. Yes, the earth's renewal of itself happens over lots of time, but there is lots of time. If the span of the earth's history was graphed on a timeline from san francisco to new york...we(humans) 20,000 years say, have only been around for about your fingernail length...so if we think that in that time we have the power to do anything to the earth we are just egocentric!...behold...there is something more powerful than us evil americans.
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raindog
Jun 21, 2003, 12:51 AM
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In reply to: what I think some people fail to understand here is that its not the "greedy corporation" that are preventing things like electric cars from becomeing popular, its the consumer. There is no market for electric cars, or for that matter a great number of things that are more environment-friendly. Don't blame big oil for the fact that everyone is still driving SUV's. Can you blame them for trying to meet the demand for their products? Hell no! Its the average consumer who decides "I think this Chevy Tahoe looks more manly than this Honda Hybrid-so I will spend more money on this gas-guzzling SUV to stoke my own sense of libido or god-knows-what instead of going the eco-friendly route of buying a perfectly good hybrid automobile that is 3 times as cost efficient." As long as you guys all have Range Rovers and Ford F250s and the like, don't preach about the evils of "big oil." They are just trying to meet YOUR demand. Its not their fault, its YOUR fault. So quit trying to blame BP and other giant oil corporations for the worlds problems and start realizing that they are just trying to get by (and make some serious money) in an oil-driven market. The market has to change first, then the buinesses adapt. It can't be done any other way. So, until you guys go out and buy a car that is gas-efficient or is reliant on an alternative energy source, quit your bitchin and realize that we ALL are the problem, not just some "greedy, evil fat-cat oil tycoon" who is "trying so desperately to keep alternative energy from coming to the common man." The supply follows the demand.
I am a mafia hit man. I kill people for a living. Can you blame me for meeting the demand that exists for hits? Hell no! It's people who are always getting themselves into to trouble by being stupid and not paying back my uncle. Once you stop messing with my family then you can blame me for the work I do. Sheesh I'm just trying to make a living.
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