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Oct 27, 2001, 3:16 PM
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I got the book, reading it and am getting somewhat confused. If anyone out there also has this book, HELP, Iv'e got Questions

Early in the book he mentions that it's not good to use the lead (climbing) rope to set up the anchor, I understand, uses up rope, hard to swing leads, escape from, difficult to equalize, etc.... One of the anchors #7 (page 19 if you have the book) does use the lead rope to set the anchor, however, there is another rope in the picture that looks like a second lead rope, what is it for?????

I'm missing something here, I am not seeing in the photo's throughout the book consistently, how the climber is clipping in, it doesn't appear that they are simultaneously (sp) tied into the lead rope and/or locked off to the anchor, have a belay device/locking 'biner coming back from the initial lead rope tie off on the anchor (if any) and another 'biner with a cordelette on their harness at the anchor point at the same time (would all this stuff even fit through the tie in loops of your harness anyway???.

enlighten me "Oh great ones" with the ways of the rope

Let me know if my description(s) don't make sense, sorry for the long post and thanks in advance.

Jeff (not so young Jedi) Tovey


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 27, 2001, 3:32 PM
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Don't have the book.

But you can easily equalize a 3 point anchor with the lead rope using an equalizing figure 8. It works on the same principal as a 'sliding X'.


rrrADAM


jbur


Oct 27, 2001, 3:50 PM
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The second rope, I never noticed it before. Could be a bi-color or bi-pattern rope. Could be a party of three and need a second rope (lead on doubles, and belay the second on one rope and the third on the other). As for the other photos, I'm not clear on what it is you want to know. Is it, how to connect yourself to the anchors? If it is, then most of the time when using a cordelette or something similar, you tie into the power point of your anchor with a figure eight on a bight and double biners. I hope this clears up some of it, if not I'll try again.

[ This Message was edited by: jbur on 2001-10-27 15:52 ]


beta


Oct 27, 2001, 4:36 PM
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Jeez Method, I didn't realize that I was the reason that there were rules and documents for everything under the sun.

I don't yet climb multi-pitch, and understanding the of documentation that exists on the subject, and the rules for common practice are important to me, I don't want to kill myself or my partners. If you get a chance to see the book, the photographs are not particularly good and I am merely trying to get info from the nice people @RC.com.

That being said, I can understand that my questions are not clear, let me try to break it down more.

1. If I reach an anchor point, bolts, trad placement, and tie into those placements with slings or a cordelette, is it accepted practice that the lead rope which I belay the second run only through the equalized point and is not connected to another anchor point on the rock to build redundancy? WHEW!!

2. Am I clipped into the slings/cordelette through the belay loop of my harness or through the leg/belt loops?. ( I don't usually use the belay loop for anything)

3. If I do use the belay loop, to hang from the anchor, is there any issue with having enough "room" to use my ATC/'biner to belay my second?

4. Can anyone tell me what the second ropes are on anchors #3, #5, and #7 are in Longs book?

I know nothing beats hands on experience, and getting qualified instruction, I have no intention of cutting corners when it comes to this, again, thanks for any help you can provide.

Jeff


jer


Oct 27, 2001, 5:51 PM
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hey beta.
1. If I reach an anchor point, bolts, trad...

No- that would make a very frustrating belay indeed. "Toproping" your second off of one or two equalized pieces is generally okay as long as they are bomber by themsleves(you don't place 3 equalized pieces every time you place a piece while youré leading do you?)
2. Am I clipped into the slings/cordelette through the belay loop of my harness or through the leg/belt loops?. ( I don't usually use the belay loop for anything)

-Use your belay loop for....ummm...belaying and equalize off of your leg/belt loops.
(this also answers #3- but...if a belay loop is strong enough to belay someone else- why shouldn't it be just as strong to rappell or anchor yourself? This is a common debate- because why not use the leg/belt loops since they are there? well personally- I like to use my belay loop for everything because it's more comfortable for me-and doesn't wear out the nylon around said loops. Well what about a backup you might ask? Good question- I back it up with a locking biner (very slim one) that goes through my leg and belt loops)

4. Can anyone tell me what the second ropes are on anchors #3, #5, and #7 are in Longs book?

Don't have the book...but I have read it and agree it needs plenty of work....I agree so much so that my buddy and I are working on a new one(anchors instructional) right now.
Hopefully it will be in stores just after the new year. Keep your eye out for
"Dr. KranK! Comics" starting this winter published by Sharp End Books!
"Climbing Know-How from Dr.Know-IT-All!

What other ideas or complaints do you have about Long's book?


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 27, 2001, 6:49 PM
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I attach to my anchor point with a teather attached to my belay loop. I back this up with an overhand in the lead rope and put that in the same locker my teather is in, just adding a little slack in the rope to weight only the teather. That way I'm weighting my belay loop, but I'm backed up with my lead rope tie-in.


rrrADAM


beta


Oct 27, 2001, 10:42 PM
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Thanks for the response Jer, I am aware that there is some controversy regarding the belay loop, the people I first started climbing with used the leg loop, belt loop for everything. They also used steel locking 'biners for their belay device and nothing less than 11mm rope, insane about safety.

I don't have a particular gripe with Longs' book, there is a ton of info in it, I just wish the photography was better and/or there were diagrams possibly in different colors to identify the different pieces of the anchor/belay system.

So, rrrAdam, I now understand the tether system you employ, but let me ask, after you have tied the overhand in the lead rope to the locking 'biner your tether is attached to, does it come back to the harness to your belay device or are you belaying off the anchor with a gri-gri or something. Also, it sounds like it is not necessary to have the lead rope backed up seperately from the anchor to another place on the rock. I guess what I mean is, if the anchor fails, and the rope only went through say, two anchor points, the whole thing goes down, (a very remote possibility if you have done your job) but if the rope is attached to it's own "anchor point" even though it will probably get shock loaded, you have a chance, does that make sense, sorry to belabor the point, I just want to get it right.

Thanks,

Jeff


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 27, 2001, 11:25 PM
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More details...

My teather consists of a piece of webbing tied into my belay loop with a water knot on one end, with a locking biner on the other end. This is what I clip into the equalized anchor system I have built.

I then tie an overhand knot making a loop in the rope I led with, and am still tied into, and clip this also in the same locker that my teather is attached to the anchor with. This gives me redundancey.


rrrADAM


darkside


Oct 28, 2001, 4:26 AM
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Jedi Jeff
I read the first book but not the second so I can't help you there. I hesitated to post a reply here because there are so many variables to consider such as single or multi-pitch, swinging leads or same leader, and type of belay device used.

I generally prefer to belay from a single tie in point from equalised anchors as I use doubles and a Kong Gi Gi. My leash is often to a seperate anchor. This works well with single pitch but having a set up where the second can lead through has advantages on multi-pitch. In such cases a set up that allows the second to continue without being taken off belay will greatly improve efficiency.

Some points to bear in mind:
-Always make your anchor redundant. A single anchor is not acceptable, regardless of how bomber it is.
-If you use a single anchor as a re-direct while belaying from the harness and tied into an equalised anchor, consider the shock load effect if the re-direct should fail.
-On multi-pitch anchors there should be a placement for upward loading in the event of a leader fall.

On the subject of belay/rappel loops: This part of the harness is as strong and probably harder wearing than the rest of the harness. Tie in to the waist/leg loops but it is OK to use the belay loop for leashes, belaying, and rapelling where this makes for more room. Just make sure that you have room to work your brake hand.

rrradam: I understand your use of rope and leash and how this would load the belay loop but have you considered using the rope for the primary tie in when belaying from the harness? This makes for a slightly more dynamic degree to the anchor in the event of a fall. It may be of benefit depending on your overall anchor set up.

Jer: nice plug for the new book


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 28, 2001, 11:04 AM
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With the amount of hanging belays I do, I'd prefer to wear on the webbing instead of my rope, hence the reason for the slack in the rope.

I have anchored from the rope only. As stated above, you can easily make an equalizing figure 8 in a bite of rope, which will connect to 3 points.


rrrADAM


jbur


Oct 28, 2001, 9:03 PM
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Let me have another crack at it.
Q1 - The best place to redirect your belay rope is through the main anchor point when using a cordelette (where the three strands come together). Some prefer to use a high piece in the anchor, but it better be bomber, if it blows you lose one piece of your anchor and shock load the remaining ones.

Q2 - The quickest method to tie into the cordelette is to grab the rope where it is tied to your harness, determine how much slack you need at the belay, tie a figure eight on a bight, and clip this into the cordelette main anchor point. If your going to clip straight into the cordelette, clip 2 opposed biners from the power point of the cordelette through your belay loop and the loop formed by your tie in knot to back it up.

Q3 - No matter the method you choose, it will always be crowded around the front of your harness. Do the best you can to keep some freedom of movement in your brake hand.

Q4 - In all those photos, that is the rope that is running from the belay device through a directional and down to the second. Why it is a different rope I don't know.

Hope this helps

[ This Message was edited by: jbur on 2001-10-28 21:07 ]


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 28, 2001, 9:52 PM
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With an 'equalizing 8' you don't need a cordelette.


rrrADAM


beta


Oct 28, 2001, 11:01 PM
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Thanks for the replies everyone, good info, on your prefered methods.

I know that there is no hard and fast rule for every situation, I am the kind of person that gets bugged if I can't figure something out, (particularly the different patterned ropes in the photos in Longs book with NO explanation by the author on why they are there), very confusing, thanks for the input from everyone on the various possibilities.

I guess that sometimes I have to accept some things on faith and move on.

Again, love the forum and the helpful folk on it, I hope you will all continue to take the time to answer the basic "no brainer" questions with your demonstrated patience, and realize that you are helping more than just me with your answers.

Jeff


addiroids


Jan 14, 2002, 6:14 PM
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Equalizing figure 8:

1) Tie a figure 8 on a bite with a REALLY long bite when you are done (like 1-2 feet).

2) Take that really long bite and pass it AROUND then THROUGH the TOP 2 strands of the knot. You are MAKING more loops, NOT UNITIEING the knot!!!

3) Not that you have done that, you have 3 loops sticking out of the top. Clip each to an anchor point, pull and figit to equalize it.

4) If one point blows, it will EXTEND to re-equalize. This could be bad. Don't place crappy gear for anchor points and this won't happen.

5) Buy 20' of 6mm cord for cordelette, and use it, keeping this handy trick in the back of your mind for when you drop your cordelette on Pitch 9 of a 14 pitch route and it is already 6pm and beer is waiting.

Also, when I tie in, I usually use a cordelette, put a locker on the power point, and just put a clove hitch on the lead rope on the locker. (I also have a daisy girthed to my harness and clipped to leg loop with locker if I need it.) Then I can slap a gri-gri on the power point to belay, or belay off my harness with and ATC. Or if I feel like a TRUE HARDMAN (meaning I just lead a 5.4 pitch and there is no way my follower will fall) just toss the rope over my back and give a hip belay like a REAL MAN (who would never do a hip belay on lead in his right mind).

TRADitionally yours,

Addiroids


wallhammer


Jan 14, 2002, 7:43 PM
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a pic is worth a thousand words? check your stu e-mail


beta


Jan 14, 2002, 8:19 PM
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Thanks Len,

I got it, very helpful

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climber1


Jan 30, 2002, 9:09 PM
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For those that have trouble picturing anchoring systems in a book, I recommend taking an anchoring class through any AMGA certified guide/school.


addiroids


Jan 30, 2002, 9:52 PM
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However, don't fault a guide school if they aren't AMGA certified. Many "AMGA Certified" guiding schools only have 1 or 2 guides who are actually AMGA certified. The guide who takes you out may not be AMGA certified. But as long as he/she teaches you stuff that keeps you from getting killed, then they did their job. Also, having taken an AMGA guided class doesn't mean you won't f-up and die.

I have taught my friends how to place gear and build anchors and I am not AMGA certified. And it sure cost a heck of a lot less than $100/person/day. Besides, you can spend that money on expensive beer for youself and your wonderful guide!!

TRADitionally yours,

Addiroids


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Feb 6, 2002, 6:53 PM
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Ahh!!!

WWAD'

The education continues, thanks Len for keeping us aspirants in line, well appreciated on this and "other" forums.

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