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cricket
Jun 24, 2003, 7:56 PM
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Promise - don't laugh too hard at this newbie question.
I absolutely love climbing - it is my new found passion. One thing - I am afraid of heights, but not afraid of pushing myself harder each time.
I have tried leading on some bolted routes (5.7's to 5.10's), but not successfully as my fear sneaks out around the second bolt. Just wondering if I should contemplate using passive chocks (ie nuts, hexs) if possible for additional security/prtection in between bolts? Had a near fall from a second bolt once, and would have hit the deck most likely if I could not have downclimbed, but at least I had a good belayer.
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jhump
Jun 24, 2003, 8:01 PM
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This is a great idea. You will develope your placement skills with the security of bolts below you. Highly recommended.
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wigglestick
Jun 24, 2003, 8:17 PM
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Good idea but not very practical. Because these are sport routes there probably isn't places to put nuts in. And if there is they probably aren't very good and you still won't want to fall. If this is such a problem you can bring a stick clip and clip the second bolt from the ground and be on top rope up until that point. People may tease you and call you names but if it makes the difference between climbing and not climbing go for it. And eventually you may build up enough confidence to ween yourself off of the stick clip.
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ontherocks
Jun 24, 2003, 8:24 PM
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In reply to: Good idea but not very practical. Because these are sport routes there probably isn't places to put nuts in. And if there is they probably aren't very good and you still won't want to fall.
Well, not necessarily. I know some easy and very well protected routes that happen to be bolted. You may find some.
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trbrts
Jun 24, 2003, 8:26 PM
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Word, I say go with the stick clip and get used to taking the wipers above the second bolt. Or pick routes with an easy 2nd clip. Falling is part of sport climbing after all.
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missedyno
Jun 24, 2003, 8:32 PM
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stay at the lower grades with your leading until the confidence comes naturally. wigglestick is right. since these are bolted routes, there probably aren't many gear placement spots. but it can't hurt to start placing gear/looking for placements
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drector
Jun 24, 2003, 8:56 PM
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I think that a little more time following should help with the fear. Or is it that you are just afraid on lead? That is more a fear of falling than a general fear of heights.
Follow up some exposed climbs until you get more comfortable. Top rope on some tall stuff and look down more often. Do you hold the rope when getting lowered? Don't do it. Just exposing yourself (no pun intended) to the heights of climbing should help to cure you of any irrational fears.
On lead, everyone gets scared a little now and then.
Dave
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cricket
Jun 24, 2003, 9:34 PM
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In time everything is possible, even if it is one tiny step at a time. I want to keep pushing my limits, and I know falls are a part of the game, but serious falls scare the %$#& out of me as I have had two previous back surgeries, and don’t want to become a crippled climber.
Usually my friend leads and sets up a top rope anchor at the top. I want to be able to do this eventually, and I will in time - just want to make it easier on the ole nerves.
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thedesertnomad
Jun 24, 2003, 10:24 PM
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Hey Cricket,
Have you fallen at all yet ?!? If not, I wouldn't recomend TRYING to fall, but I know that my first leader fall was a shocking experience. It was scary as hell, very sudden and unexpected, and most of all the best thing that could have happened to me. It helped me gain trust in the gear, myself, and most importantly... my partner. It was however a trad lead fall and I have only repeated falling on 2 other occasions, but it made it easier for me to push to the next level. Most importantly, don't lead outside your comfort zone for any reason... with time comes trust, technique, and strength. Especially in trad... the funny thing is having all that expensive gear and NEVER wanting to actually USE it... lol
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cricket
Jun 24, 2003, 10:30 PM
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I have fallen twice unexpectedly, but it was like only 3 feet or so. Quite the rush after, knowing that your gear has saved you - it's a better feeling knowing that your belayer has got you. I am getting better at it though: Not hanging on the rope anymore while descending, and I don't repeatedly shout, "are you sure you got me", after the 'take' command, LOL.
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crackaddict
Jun 24, 2003, 10:50 PM
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Good and bad idea.
Good because you will learn to place pro. Bad because placing pro and being an inexperienced leader is'nt always a good idea. It's a good idea to have lots of practice placing pro and be on something you know that you are not going to fall on when you are doing your first pro leads. Also sometimes you can waste time and energy trying to get the pro in and end up falling anyway. There have been times that I have been in more danger being scared of a fall and trying to get a piece in rather than just going for it.
If there were long runouts I would say use the pro. But if this is a typical sport area and the bolts are close. Then it sounds like you just need to more practice.
TR these routes then lead them.
Learn to place pro on TR as well.
Practice falls and get comfortable on the rock.
Chris...
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djmacedonas
Jun 24, 2003, 11:17 PM
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Don't be too scared about your back... It hopefully isn't THAT fragile... Take the advice about falling, you MUST someday fall, it will really help you with your head...
My first "Real" fall was about a year ago in Rock Canyon, Utah... probably only 10 feet or so... Still, it was over before I even had time to get scared. Oh, and I know they call them "whippers" but the actual rope catching doesn't really 'whip' you... It's actually remarkably gentle...
I would never recommend falling on purpose, but the best advice I saw in a recent Rock and Ice: Climb as if you won't fall, but push yourself until you do"
So much of climbing is in the mind: I can flash routes on TR, but put me on lead and I start having doubts... Trust me, I'm a fraidy cat too...
As for the "stick clip" or "chick stick" or whatever, use it, and screw anyone who makes fun of you... Macho is never a good reason to risk a ground fall. So to sum up:
1. Climb within your ability and lead within your comfort zone...
2. Place gear if it's available, it's good practice, but don't obsess about it.
3. Most routes are well designed, with a high 1st bolt and low 2nd bolt. I've come across very few that expose you to a groundfall at the second bolt...
4. ...However, many routes will expose you to a groundfall if you "do it wrong"* at the second bolt (see below).
5. Climb, don't obsess about falling... If you fall, you'll most likely realize it AFTER it's over, not during
*"Doing it wrong": It's very easy for a newbie leader to screw this up, so pay attention... Many new leaders REACH for the second bolt (or any bolt after the first for that matter) as soon as possible. If you are comfortable, and set, and there is little chance of you falling, then this is acceptable... otherwise it is WRONG, and potentially very DANGEROUS... why? Because it exposes you to a much longer fall (by almost 5 feet, which at the second bolt could make the difference between a whipper and serious injury). The correct way to do it is to get about level with the bolt, so that it's at least face or chest level, then clip it. This is especially true of routes that were built from the ground up, and not rap bolted... It's likely that the person who installed that bolt was in a comfortable position to do so. At any rate, if you fall having climbed TO the bolt, you will fall a much shorter distance PAST the last bolt, than if you fall while reaching for that bolt with your rope (that's where the danger lies by the way, after you clipped the draw, reaching for the draw with rope in hand, your belayer has just let out a shit load of rope so you can clip, so your going to sail if you blow it!). I hope this makes sense, let me know if it doesn't...
Good luck and have fun!
djm
djm
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brutusofwyde
Jun 25, 2003, 12:53 AM
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Some gyms require that you take a lead fall as a part of your lead test. And not any ol short 3-footer.
brutus
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billcoe_
Jun 25, 2003, 4:05 AM
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DUDE! I not only promise I won't "laugh too hard at that newbie question". I compliment you for asking it.
It's fairly good advice above. Let me try answering.
1st) Being afraid of heights, but not afraid of pushing myself harder each time.
We're all generally afraid of heights. Some more so than others. Over the years it will come and go for each of us, but it does decrease with experience and more practice. Being on the rocks a lot makes it go away most of the time, at least until that storm comes over the horizon, and you're 12 pitches up, 3 to go and you're rain gear is at camp.
2nd) re: "Contemplating using passive chocks (ie nuts, hexs) if possible for additional security/prtection in between bolts?"
Do it. I've climbed with a 5.13 climber (better than I ever was) who stuck gear in between fixed pieces on a 5.11a trad climb that was mostly fixed pins- but which really didn't need the extra pro.
You don't say if you might reinjure your back by falling, but if you think you might, then you need to avoid falling - PERIOD> Why injure yourself unless you're starting on Jackass the movie and somebody is paying you. Just so you know, the mantra in the old days was this " the leader must not fall". While things have gotten immensly better, you can go peruse accidents and injuries on this site and read of deaths and bad injuries from people falling or even leaning back on gear (take!).
My advise is to practice more by following until you feel comfortable. You might consider leading some of the climbs you are already comfortable with. And by all means, stick extra gear in, hey, even if it doesn't need it, you will get practice on placing it. To reiterate: don't burn all your strength on placing gear so that you actually have to run it out or fall later. Us you brain to learn as much as you can of the climb, and strategise before you leave the ground on where you are planing to rest and place pro. What happens if you make that little ledge but there isn't a good placement, etc etc.
Above all, keep asking the questions, it's the best way to learn. Glad you asked it.
Good luck and have fun:
Bill
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jefffski
Jun 25, 2003, 6:34 AM
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cricket,
i learned to lead on gear. after the course i took (great way to learn), i decided that i would not climb anything that i had a chance of falling on. i did not fall until my third season leading.
the rub is that although i got a very good foundation (lots of 5.6-5.8 climbs), i progressed through the numbers slowly. i now climb mid 10's and have had a handful (not too many) of leader falls.
people i've met who began way later than me, can climb way harder than me because they pushed the grades early on. they got over their fear of falling quickly and took risks that i thought were not worth it.
i never use a stick clip--if i'm not prepared to take the risk i don't climb it--for me it's a matter of style (and yes, i've climbed at smith). people who clip usually get up harder stuff than me.
which way is best? depends on you. there is no right way.
as the late great alex lowe said--he who's having the most fun wins.
good luck to you cricket
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overlord
Jun 25, 2003, 12:12 PM
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place additional gear it it will help you feel more secure. but on most sport routes i have climbed there aren any good places to put pro in. adn if they are theyre used as good holds to clip the bolts from. but you do get the occasional sport crack or a chymney.
personally i wouldn bother, since the bolts are strong enough to take on serious falls with a shrug. its only in your head.
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reno
Jun 25, 2003, 12:54 PM
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In reply to: Hey Cricket, Have you fallen at all yet ?!? If not, I wouldn't recomend TRYING to fall, but I know that my first leader fall was a shocking experience. It was scary as hell, very sudden and unexpected, and most of all the best thing that could have happened to me. It helped me gain trust in the gear, myself, and most importantly... my partner.
Agreed totally, and I also agree with Crazylikeafawkes... Lead on routes you are comfortable with... those that are within your grade.
The most frequent mistake I've seen among climbers (and no, I'm by no stretch an expert) is trying to do things way outside their abilities. While I applaud pushing your limits, one must endeavour to do this in a safe fashion. We would all agree that not every 5.10a is the same... some .10a's are easier than others. My suggestion is to find your upper limit WITHIN your comfort zone (for me, this is 5.9) and work LOTS of routes in that grade. Once this is very comfortable, and not just "kinda comfortable," then move on.
As for my first leader fall, I was trying to transition from an undercling beneath a roof to a layback. Missed the hold, peeled off, and took a 15 footer on a 0.5 Friend. Gave me a instant respect for small gear.
Climb safe, climb well.
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whichwayisup
Jun 25, 2003, 5:12 PM
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I would suggest climbing something slightly overhanging therefore you wont have to worry about smacking back into the rock. I took a 12 footer last week on an overhang and it was a suprisingly soft catch (props to Blue Water ropes).
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bryhopkins
Jun 26, 2003, 5:17 AM
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one thing you can do to get used to leading is get two ropes, and find two belayers. have one of them lead the route and set a top rope, then lead the route while top roping it to get used to the feeling of clipping and everything. have the person who is belaying you on top rope give you lots of slack so that if you fall you can fall like a normal lead fall, but still give you the comfort of being on top rope.
i don't think that made much sense but ya...i think you kind of get the jist (i don't know how to spell that word) of it
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slappy
Jun 27, 2003, 5:30 AM
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bryhopkins, this is how I learnt to lead, which is great. My mate (who is an instructor) made me do it like this a few times until I was familiar with the route (which was a grade 12 - kiwi grade not us grade) and familiar with tying the knots and going through the procedure so I could get all the gear down. Sure made me feel comfortable with my leading since then. Still always get a rush as soon as I go past my quickdraw on my first few climbs of the day, and even more so when I safety in at the top of a climb, but hey, that's all part of the fun.
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billcoe_
Jul 26, 2003, 5:39 AM
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1 more important thing cricket. You might look into a chest harness if your back is really that bad. They are common in Europe, but rare in the states. If I was you, I would avoid falling at all costs (practice hard stuff on toprope) and get a chest harness or full body harness. I wouldn't want to see you take some of the bouldering falls some of us too as young idiots, errr, young pups I mean.
Regards:
Bill
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ptone
Jul 26, 2003, 5:59 AM
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Like many said, most sport climbs come to be bolted because there isn't enough places for natural protection, so often you won't find much between the bolts.
There are alot of mixed climbs around my area, where there is only one or two bolts to cover unprotected runs. This is where I learned to place gear first. Kinda nice, cause once in a while I'd be able to back up with a bolt!
It is great to place gear, I see climbing and the rock and even movement differently for learning trad, but I recommend one thing above all...
If you are new to placing gear, find someone to climb with who has lots of experience to help you learn method and the works. It is easy to put something in badly, but have it look good. Even above a bolt, if you jack in a bad piece off to the side, then fall and it pulls, it could send you looping worse than a straight fall.
IMO climbing is best learned hands on, in the hands of experience!
peace,
-p
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alpinerockfiend
Jul 28, 2003, 3:05 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Good idea but not very practical. Because these are sport routes there probably isn't places to put nuts in. And if there is they probably aren't very good and you still won't want to fall. Well, not necessarily. I know some easy and very well protected routes that happen to be bolted. You may find some.
And if you do happen to find some, take a wrench, some expoy, and some rock dust to chop the route! Ridiculous!!
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no_limit
Jul 28, 2003, 4:06 PM
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I've only fallen maybe 5 times. My two big falls were in the gym as part of a class. They were pretty fun. A couple were outside, but I only fell a few feet. My worst was on a slab, because I didn't kick off, so I slid down the slab for about 15 feet, until the rope caught me.
Don't climb slabs until you know what you are doing. Overhanging is the best to learn on.
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