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climbsomething
Jun 26, 2003, 2:48 AM
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OK, I know I routinely climb and hang out with peeps who own scotch older than me, and I consider myself an "old soul," I am still quite a pup myself. I hear terms of times past and I can usually understand, but not fully. I am lacking a more thorough understanding, and visuals, about lots of relics from the tombs of the Climbers Tut ;)
I wanna know more about:
Whillans sit harnesses?
PAs and RDs? (I do know they're climbing shoes)
Crack-em-Ups?
The B-rating system for boulder problems?
etcetera, etcetera... I know you can think of others
How did these items work, look, feel? Why were they cutting edge or flops, and why did they become obsolete? And yes, I want illustrations.
Story time!
Your adoring, wistful young Betty,
~Hillary
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jt512
Jun 26, 2003, 2:54 AM
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In reply to: OK, I know I routinely climb and hang out with peeps who own scotch older than me... Your adoring, wistful young Betty,
Careful with language like that, Hillary. You're liable to give some of these old guys heart attacks.
-Jay
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jgill
Jun 26, 2003, 3:10 AM
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Well, Hillary, RDs and PAs were smooth-soled rock climbing shoes used a number of years ago. Pierre Allain designed the first rock climbing shoes (similar to what we now use) in the 1930s. I had a pair that I bought in the late 1950s that were very much like what is currently used, but did not have sticky rubber soles. Go to my website (johngill.net) to see a photo of me wearing them about 1960. RDs (Rene Demaisson)were popular in the 1960s. They were a high top, like the PAs, but sturdier - suede leather uppers. Stiffer than the PAs, they were better for edging. Go to the photo in my collection here at rc.com and pull up the one of Rich Goldstone bouldering - he's wearing RDs. Again, no sticky rubber - that was a Spanish innovation developed in the 1970s or early 1980s, I think.
As for the B-rating system, which I devised in the late 1950s, it consisted of three grades: B1 described the highest trad level of difficulty (there was no sport climbing then), B2 was "bouldering grade" or more difficult than B1, and B3 described a problem that had been done only once, though tried frequently. When a second ascent occured, the rating dropped accordingly. The idea was to entice climbers into bouldering, but keep the sport from turning into number-chasing. When climbers started using B1+ and B2- I knew the game was up. Check my website for a little more info. 8)
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curt
Jun 26, 2003, 3:14 AM
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In reply to: OK, I know I routinely climb and hang out with peeps who own scotch older than me, and I consider myself an "old soul," I am still quite a pup myself. I hear terms of times past and I can usually understand, but not fully. I am lacking a more thorough understanding, and visuals, about lots of relics from the tombs of the Climbers Tut ;) I wanna know more about: Whillans sit harnesses? PAs and RDs? (I do know they're climbing shoes) Crack-em-Ups? The B-rating system for boulder problems? etcetera, etcetera... I know you can think of others How did these items work, look, feel? Why were they cutting edge or flops, and why did they become obsolete? And yes, I want illustrations. Story time! Your adoring, wistful young Betty, ~Hillary
HAHAHA. Grommets are funny--even really cute climbing Betty grommets. OK, here goes.
1) The Whillans sit (or gelding) harness was one of the first commercially available climbing harnesses. Why in God's name Whillans designed the thing the way he did is beyond me. The Whillans harness did not have leg loops, per se, rather it had a piece of webbing that went behind each leg and then met in the front. from this meeting point, there was another piece of webbing that went up to the harness tie in point, which consisted to two separate loops. After the rope was tied into these two loops a carabiner was run from the ascending front-central piece of webbing and clipped not through--but around--the tie in rope. In theory, when you fell, this would tip you slightly back and you would be supported by the webbing behind your legs. In practice, if you fell straight down, the pain could be quite intense--as your testicles would have nowhere to go. Perhaps women found no flaw with this design?
2) PAs and RDs were early smooth soled climbing shoes. The PAs are named after Pierre Alain, a famous french climber from the 40s and 50s. Prior to starting the shoe company PA, Alain was a partner with Edmond Bourdinalt (sp?) who founded EB. I do not know what RD stands for, perhaps someone else will add this information. Anyway, unlike the EBs and PAs, the RDs were all leather and a much stiffer shoe.
3) Crack'n ups were originally aid climbing devices that looked almost exactly like little ship anchors. From a central stem, two pointed arms went out in opposing directions. They could be placed much like hooks for aid climbing. However, they were also used for free climbing and the picture of Steve Wunsch leading P.R. (5.11+) in the Shawangunk Rock Climbs book shows him leading the route on these.
4) The "B" rating system for bouldering was devised by John Gill. It was intended to be a "sliding scale" that indexed with the climbing standards of the day. Originally B1 was defined as bouldering that involved moves as hard as anything done on the hardest rock climbs of the day. B2 was substantially harder than that. B3 was a grade that was rarely used. It represented the rating for a boulder problem that was done once and not repeated--in spite of the efforts of other competent boulderers to do so.
That's it for today's history lesson. Now, where did I leave that Scotch?
Curt
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climbsomething
Jun 26, 2003, 3:17 AM
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Jay, we both know Curt is in excellent cardiovascular health! Pleeeeeze.
But anyway. Let me channel one of our favorite people (*bwoop, bwoop: In-Joke Alert!*):
--- :idea: Jay,you, ,of all people,,, should know to stay on topic!!/ :!: :!: :roll:---
Now. As I was.
Thanks, jgill. How does your B-system correspond to the modern Hueco system? Or is that on your web site too? 8)
I'll go have a look right now...
www.johngill.net :mrgreen:
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oldandintheway
Jun 26, 2003, 3:27 AM
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Hey Hill
Whenever I see these kinds of threads its like nostalgia...eck! BTW, I probably have Biners older than you too. Hows' Nana?
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curt
Jun 26, 2003, 4:43 AM
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In reply to: Thanks, jgill. How does your B-system correspond to the modern Hueco system? Or is that on your web site too?
In modern bouldering usage B1 is probably in the range of V3, V4 and V5. B2 ranges from V6 or so upwards. If you need additional high end discrimination of grades, I would say that B2+ is V9 or harder.
Curt
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pbjosh
Jun 26, 2003, 4:58 AM
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In reply to: I'll field this one too, since John is even older than I, and has most likely retired for the evening. In modern bouldering usage B1 is probably in the range of V3, V4 and V5. B2 ranges from V6 or so upwards. If you need additional high end discrimination of grades, I would say that B2+ is V9 or harder.
This more or less corresponds with what I've seen in the way of translation attempts. I've seen this one before:
B1 = up to 5.12-
B2 = 5.12 and up
B3 = doesn't exist any more
I've also seen the various "B1, B1+, B2- and B2" problems get translations like this into modern grades (these are all from individual examples):
B1 - up to V5
B1+ -> V5 through V7
B2- -> V5 through V7
B2 -> V6 through V8 or V9?
josh
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bobd1953
Jun 26, 2003, 6:17 AM
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In reply to: Crack'n ups were originally aid climbing devices that looked almost exactly like little ship anchors. From a central stem, two pointed arms went out in opposing directions. They could be placed much like hooks for aid climbing. However, they were also used for free climbing and the picture of Steve Wunsch leading P.R. (5.11+) in the Shawangunk Rock Climbs book shows him leading the route on these.
Curt, thanks for the memories! I led "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" in the Gunks in 1977 with Kevin Bein and Barbara Devine following. We used 3 Crack'n ups, (at the crux) plus small stoppers for protection.
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rockfax
Jun 26, 2003, 6:52 AM
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I had a fight with Whillans once...of the ball-ripping harness fame.
It was in the Black Dog (a pub) in Belmont, near Wilton Quarries...Bolton, Lancashire, England.
It was a Black Pudding Team Team Dinner organised by Ian Lonsdale.
I was working for the Ministry Of Agriculture (a government agency) in the south of England. Stole some ethanol (or was it methanol) from the lab (I was working on Malathion resistant Oryzaephilus Surinemensis)....hitched it up north to the party ,and friends and I mixed the ethanol with wine and got totally....well you know.
Don Whillans was the guest speaker.......early in the evening I poured a pint over my head and anounced to everyone that I was going to have a great time tonight (I think I already was).....I got punched out by the landlord of the pub but managed to sneak back in...snuk back in for a great slide show by the man himself...
....and later when most had gone, in front of a roaring coal fire....Don Whillans challenged me to a fight....he was wearing dungarees and nothing else...he got me...eventually in a strangle hold and I submitted to his superiour strength, stamina and wit.......
Poor sod died of a heart attck a coupla years later....
That Whillans harness...painful....the man himself...a character....my sperm count.....still live...and kicking
Mick
www.rockfax.com
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edge
Jun 26, 2003, 1:21 PM
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In reply to: In practice, if you fell straight down, the pain could be quite intense--as your testicles would have nowhere to go. Perhaps women found no flaw with this design? Curt
Or even looked forward to falling??? :D
As far as shoes go, you forgot to mention EBs, named I believe for Edouard Bordondeau (sp?), which were THE shoe in the 1970's. They were painful when worn tight, and although they were somewhat asymmetrical, I do remember a Kiwi climber in the Valley who wore his on the wrong feet when he blew a hole on the instep edge. This very same climber managed to clear Housekeeping Camp of all visitors when he decided to dry his wet EBs out by holding them up to a wall mounted air dryer located next to the bathroom sinks. Ah, memories...
Also, please don't forget Goldline rope. While the Euros were making and using kernmantle, the US was manufacturing a three strand, twisted nylon rope; twisted being the operative word, both describing the rope and the minds of the people who thought that it was good for climbing. My first rope was a 3/8" Goldline, and it stretched so much that the first step off when rapelling would always be quite an adventure, waiting for it to stop elongating. (sorry if I'm painting bad visuals about rapelling, Hillary :shock: ). It also made interesting noises as the strands ran through a Sticht plate.
What's a Sticht Plate, you say? It was a 2 1/2" diameter plate of 3/8" thick aluminum with elongated slots used for belaying, much like the modern ATCs. The difference was that they sported a 2 1'2" diameter spring that held the plate away from the carabiner for smooth feeding. When you fell, the spring would compress and the rope would sieze up against the plate. The problem was that the spring would get caught on every sling, runner, shoelace, or pant leg that it came into contact with, always at the most inopportune moment. If you had two of them, however, and duct taped them to your shoes, they did make for a passible moon walk simulator.
OK, time for a nap and a glass of warm gin.
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jt512
Jun 26, 2003, 3:42 PM
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In reply to: Jay, we both know Curt is in excellent cardiovascular health! Pleeeeeze.
Well, regular consumption of alcoholic beverages has been shown to reduce the risk of heart disease.
-Jay
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curt
Jun 27, 2003, 12:26 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Jay, we both know Curt is in excellent cardiovascular health! Pleeeeeze. Well, regular consumption of alcoholic beverages has been shown to reduce the risk of heart disease. -Jay
Yes, my consumption of alcohol is--of course--for purely theraputic purposes only.
"I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me." - W.S. Churchill
Curt
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josher
Jun 27, 2003, 12:33 AM
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Whillans sit harnesses (aka, ouch, my f____ nuts!) was my first harness (used the ole' swami prior). It was a tee-shaped harness. Built well, just a poor design.
Did a google search and found nada
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edge
Jun 27, 2003, 12:36 PM
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OK, here is a pic of some of the gear we are talking about. Being a Yankee from NH means that I don't throw anything away, however I couldn't find my old Whillans. I guess the painful memories outweighed the nostalgia of keeping it.
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jgill
Jun 28, 2003, 5:13 AM
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Edge, all that gear looks pretty modern to me! :lol: 8)
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edge
Jun 28, 2003, 11:56 AM
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Yes, John, sadly I was born too late to enjoy the hemp rope and klettershuh era. I do, however, have permanent scars from performing a dulphersitz rappel, and a small collection of soft iron pitons that have pulled out of old climbs under nothing more than light hand pressure.
On two of my cross country voyages I stopped at the Needles in South Dakota to clear the cobwebs out of my head (after the seemingly endless trek from New England), and had the most fun bouldering, sans crashpad of course, on problems that you had pioneered years before. I can't say that I completed many of them, but was amazed at the level at which you must have been climbing. There was nothing more rewarding than jumping on a boulder while my friend looked in the guidebook and said "It's a Gill B2!".
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rgold
Aug 3, 2003, 5:05 PM
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A footnote to John's post: RD's were primarily an Eastern climbing shoe, and as far as I know, I was the first person to use them. I saw an ad for them in an issue of Alpinisme in the early sixties and, after some investigation managed to order a pair from Eduouard Frendo, a French catalog store run by a famous French climber of the same name. For many years, no store in the US stocked them and we all got our shoes this way. The shoes had a smooth (and definitely non-sticky) sole and a steel shank, so they were plenty stiff. The leather uppers were incredibly beefy compared to today's shoes; I'd guess such shoes would cost well over $200 today. In the sixties, after currency exchange and duty, a pair cost $15.
As John said, the original smooth-soled shoes were PA's, named for Pierre Allain and invented in the 1930's. They were modeled directly on the sneakers of the time. These went out of production, and were revived as EB's, which I always thought stood for Ellis Brigham, the British distributor. These shoes had coated fabric uppers, presumably as a nod to typically wet British climbing conditions. You can just imagine what happened to your feet in the typically hot and sometimes humid American environments. Eventually, a French manufacturer revived the PA brand.
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fredbob
Aug 3, 2003, 6:26 PM
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In reply to: RD's were primarily an Eastern climbing shoe, and as far as I know... ...the original smooth-soled shoes were PA's, named for Pierre Allain and invented in the 1930's. They were modeled directly on the sneakers of the time. These went out of production, and were revived as EB's, which I always thought stood for Ellis Brigham, the British distributor.
The RD's were used by several So Cal climbers in the late sixties and early 70s, most notably Ivan Couch. Ivan put up Valhalla at Suicide Rock in RDs. If you have a copy of the latest edition of the Tahquitz/Suicide guide (2001) there is a nice photo of Ivan drilling a bolt on the FA of Valhalla in RDs.
The red PAs were actually my first climbing shoe (I think I still have them somewhere). The rubber was quite hard didn't smear well at all, they too had canvas uppers. When new, they edged ok, but after awhile, they were not very good at anything (or maybe I wasn't).
EBs were lightyears ahead than the RDs or PAs. The rubber was much softer and "stickier" (if you could even describe them as sticky) and could smear far better and edged ok if your feet were strong.
Few climbers in California wore the Whillans harnesses. Some people used the Whillans for big walls (I used a leg loop addition to my swami for walls) and a fair percentage of the handful of female climbers I knew wore them.
For the rest of us, initially, a 1" webbing swami belt (1' webbing wrapped around your waist maybe 4 to 6 times and tied off with a water knot) was used. Then the comfort of the 2" swami (2" inch webbing [only available in red]) came along and pretty much was the standard until decent harnesses came onto the scene.
Prior to all this, climbers usually did a bowline on a coil (wrapped the rope around the waist 1 to 3+ times) and secured it with a bowline knot.
Actually, if your interested in shoe history in western US, the history section of the Tahquitz guide gives some background on what people were wearing at different times, and has historical photos too.
The 1937 ascent of Mechanic's Route (5.8 R) in tennis shoes and hemp rope would stump (or scare) most of us sticky rubber users today.
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dairyfarmer
Aug 3, 2003, 6:51 PM
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I syill climb using my sit seat harness, of course at my age I no longer expect or want to have children. I also continue to use my wedges , stoppers and SMC cam locks, replaceing the webbing/cordage as needed.
As there are no moving parts, there is no metal fatigue to be concerned about and anything taking a seriuous fall is carfully inspected and retired if needed. But this brings up the point that the improved equipment and techniques make possible sustained climbing only dreamed of 30 years ago. What do you think is the next big advance in equipment/technique and how far will it raise the bar?
Take care and climb safe, it time for my nap
Dick Bevier
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unabonger
Aug 11, 2003, 9:43 PM
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What's a "nickel bag"? I heard some old hippies talking about "nickel bags". Anybody know?
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keinangst
Aug 11, 2003, 10:19 PM
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In reply to: What's a "nickel bag"? I heard some old hippies talking about "nickel bags". Anybody know?
It was a handy device that could be carried in one's pocket. Many people used it to help them focus on the tougher problems. However, fatigue was an issue, as was conserving your rations on multi-pitch.
:D
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crag
Aug 11, 2003, 10:58 PM
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In reply to: What's a "nickel bag"? I heard some old hippies talking about "nickel bags". Anybody know?
A device which is slightly larger than a "Dime" Bag, interestingly enough though a "Dime" bag was usually found to be more economical therefore easier on the budget, nonexistent as it was.
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iamthewallress
Aug 11, 2003, 11:09 PM
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How many of you guys climbed on homemade pro like slung stuff from the hardware or home-forged pitons? Tell us about the non-comercial goodies too.
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wlderdude
Aug 11, 2003, 11:22 PM
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Home made gear?
Heck, you don't need to go back in history for that!
People are always making their own gear.
Lots of innovation is still going on in the minds and garages of crafty climbers.
I tried making a new style of cam. I recognized there wasn't much a market for it, so the prototpe was abandoned.
I made my own nuts. They had stright sides, which I found don't fit nearly as well as the commercially avalible curved ones. I am sure Tom Frost would be disapointed, but they just sit in my closet at home.
I made several of my own harnesses. I don't use them much. They are as strong as store bought, but more difficult to put on. Absence of practical gear loops also keeps them in my closet most of the time.
I did sling up some machine nuts on perlon when I was younger, but never did use them. I can't imagine they would have placed well.
Oh, I am only 25. Sorry, not an old timer.
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