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tradmanclimbs
Jun 27, 2003, 3:41 PM
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in the past a red point was a continueous accent of a bolted climb clipping the draws to the bolts and then to the rope, climbing to the anchors with no falls or rests. A pink point was a clean accent but with the draws allready in place. Now we all know it is harder to place the draws as you climb so it stands to reason that a true redpoint would recive more credit than a pink point. I recently read in a NRG guide's glossary. Pink Point; a term rendered obsolete by modern sport climbing standards. I felt that it would have been more accurate to say "rendered obsolete by declineing standards. Since it is obviously more dificult to climb while clipping the draws as you go why wouldn't we make that the norm rather than the exception on hard rt's. The whole point of sport climbing is to climb the hardest line possible yet at the cutting edge of the sport they are trying to make it easier but still hard. WTF? You can argue that the climb is not possible without cheating a bit but if that is the case why not climb at the highest level you can climb without cheating? Why not at least differentiate between a red and pink point when reporting in the mags?
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jt512
Jun 27, 2003, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: in the past a red point was a continueous accent of a bolted climb clipping the draws to the bolts and then to the rope, climbing to the anchors with no falls or rests. A pink point was a clean accent but with the draws allready in place. Now we all know it is harder to place the draws as you climb so it stands to reason that a true redpoint would recive more credit than a pink point. I recently read in a NRG guide's glossary. Pink Point; a term rendered obsolete by modern sport climbing standards. I felt that it would have been more accurate to say "rendered obsolete by declineing standards.
*chuckle*
In reply to: Since it is obviously more dificult to climb while clipping the draws as you go why wouldn't we make that the norm rather than the exception on hard rt's. The whole point of sport climbing is to climb the hardest line possible...
Looks to me like you answered your own question. Sport climbing is about the climbing, not about putting up the draws.
In reply to: ...yet at the cutting edge of the sport they are trying to make it easier but still hard. WTF?
It is not just at the cutting edge of the sport. Almost all redpoints are done with the draws preplaced at all levels of sport climbing. I don't know a single experienced sport climber who would clean his draws after an unsuccessful redpoint attempt, just so he could put them back up again on his next attempt. The notion is ridiculous.
In reply to: You can argue that the climb is not possible without cheating a bit but if that is the case why not climb at the highest level you can climb without cheating?
Cheating? Since when is climbing on pre-placed draws cheating? Since when do you make up the rules?
In reply to: Why not at least differentiate between a red and pink point when reporting in the mags?
Because (1) nobody but 5.8 gumbies cares about whether the draws are pre-placed or not and (2) virtually all hard redpoints are done with the draws pre-placed.
-Jay
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veggieclimber
Jun 27, 2003, 4:11 PM
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Coincidentally this came up between me and my parnter the other day. We were talking about the definitions of Flash, On-Site, Red-Point, and of course the ambigious Pink-Point. After about 20 minutes of discussion on the way back from the crags, he and I, for our purposes decided this. It doesn't really matter to us. Whether he or I climbed a route we had never done before with no problem, or whether we, mostly I, spent a half an hour falling, and taking a few rests on a route, but finally topping it out, it didn't matter as along as we were being challenged. As long as I was a little tired and pumped out at the end of a route, and I had fun doing it, that is more than enough for me. Now I understand that people at the upper echelon of the sport may want to define how easy or difficult a route was for them, personally I don't worry too much about it. And if one week I can do somethng a little bit better than last week, yeah for me, no need for labels.
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killclimbz
Jun 27, 2003, 4:11 PM
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It is because they have dropped the whole pink point thing. I think it's mostly because of the fact if you are having to work a route to get the clean ascent, besides for your first or second try it makes little difference. I've got several red/pink points on routes that were at my limit both hanging draws and clipping ones already there. Not to mention it's a big pain in the ass to clean your draws and re hang them for something as stoopid as to differentiate between a red and pink point.
Is it harder hanging draws? Yes, and it is always a little more satisfying getting the clean ascent hanging draws.
Is it that much harder? Not really.
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vertical_reality
Jun 27, 2003, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: in the past a red point was a continueous accent of a bolted climb clipping the draws to the bolts and then to the rope, climbing to the anchors with no falls or rests. A pink point was a clean accent but with the draws allready in place. Now we all know it is harder to place the draws as you climb so it stands to reason that a true redpoint would recive more credit than a pink point. I recently read in a NRG guide's glossary. Pink Point; a term rendered obsolete by modern sport climbing standards. I felt that it would have been more accurate to say "rendered obsolete by declineing standards. Since it is obviously more dificult to climb while clipping the draws as you go why wouldn't we make that the norm rather than the exception on hard rt's. The whole point of sport climbing is to climb the hardest line possible yet at the cutting edge of the sport they are trying to make it easier but still hard. WTF? You can argue that the climb is not possible without cheating a bit but if that is the case why not climb at the highest level you can climb without cheating? Why not at least differentiate between a red and pink point when reporting in the mags?
Sounds like someone is looking for recognition for their climbing.
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kalcario
Jun 27, 2003, 4:18 PM
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Because quickdraws aren't pro. The pro is fixed.
When you do a trad climb, you only get full credit for the lead if you place all the pro from the ground up during the lead, right? The climb is rated 10 or 11 or whatever because the difficulty of hanging out and placing the gear is factored into the grade. If you were to preprotect the crack climb, with all the nuts and friends sticking out of the crack but with no biners on them, you would'nt get anymore credit because you clipped the biners onto the gear.
But with sport climbing, you can't place the gear on the lead. It's fixed. Just like in trad, you don't get extra credit for clipping the biners to the gear. No one denies it's harder to carry and place the draws, but sport climbs are rated for move difficulty and pump factor, not for pro placement, because there is'nt any.
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scottcody
Jun 27, 2003, 4:34 PM
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In reply to: Red Point VS Pink Point
The only point of the argument is to measure the size of ones member in comparison to anothers.
Either the route has been climbed without falling or it hasn't and the only logical conclusion to this argument is that soloing is the easiest form of ascent (no rope drag, no extra weight etc).
let the flames begin
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bobd1953
Jun 27, 2003, 4:37 PM
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In reply to: The whole point of sport climbing is to climb the hardest line possible yet at the cutting edge of the sport they are trying to make it easier but still hard. WTF?
So what is your take on "headpointing"? Being an old trad climber who sport climbs I find this activity almost funny and a somewhat two-faced way of calling the route a "trad climb". I will quote you but with a few words changed!
The whole point of "trad-climbing" is to climb the hardest line possible from the ground up, yet at the cutting edge of the sport they are trying to make it easier but still hard by pre-placing gear and top-roping the route before leading it!
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bumblie
Jun 27, 2003, 4:38 PM
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Maybe they should have different grades for placing draws vs. pre-placing them. On some routes it doesn't change the difficulty, but this is the exception.
Fixed draws should be acceptable for either style of redpoint.
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styndall
Jun 27, 2003, 4:40 PM
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No one cares about red point vs pink point because this is called ROCK CLIMBING not DRAW PLACING. A successful ascent without weighting any gear is the goal. Hence, climbing.
I go with a simpler system. Flash, send, or work. Those are the three options.
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bobd1953
Jun 27, 2003, 4:41 PM
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Sorry about the double post, I quess I was trying to prove a point!
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kalcario
Jun 27, 2003, 4:49 PM
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It is somewhat ironic, and I'm sure not appreciated by sport-hating trad climbers, that the derisive and borderline effeminate term "pinkpoint" now only applies to trad climbing.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 27, 2003, 5:11 PM
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If you all agree that placeing draws as you climb adds dificulty as well as excitement to the climb then why is it such a stupid topic? If I claimed that I had climbed the hardest climb in the world and someone came allong and climbed it without pre placed draws wouldn't that be an accomplishment? How about the theory that climbing a 14a without pre placed draws would be as hard as a 14d with them? Wouldn't it help access issues if the crags wern't covered with draws all the time? Not an isssue in many places but certainly could be in some areas. I know if my local crag had as many draws hanging off it as some places I have seen it would cause a big stink. There is a hard project there and we allways pull the draws to keep the impact down. I also leave draws up most of the time when switching leads spurt climbing. Why however would you call me a gumby if i chose to make a harder, cleaner accent of a climb by pulling the draws prior to an accent? As for headpointing I have done it myself only because other people do it and it is accepted for hard scary rt's and I am a pusssy. I do however belive that a cutting edge accent of a scarefest done without headpointing would be worth mentioning. I am not realy talking about all us normal climber, We all presumeably climb just for the fun of it. The debate was realy intended for the climbs that we read about in the mags.
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neeshman
Jun 27, 2003, 5:15 PM
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Ok, My Partner And I discussed the other day how hilarious it is that everyone on this site gets so pissed off over these kinds of things. I know this particular forum is not the prime example of the anger this site ensues... but still we are talking about the difference between RedPoints and PinkPoints. In My Humble Opinion pink points should stay linked to trad climbing, cause I am under the belief that there is a big difference when it comes to placing gear (nuts, cams, hexes, etc...) and clipping into a pre placed gear as opposed to clippng a draw and clipping the rope into a draw thats already there.
There are so many differeneces between Gear placements and draw clipping. I learned this from my recent (and first) trad climb in Red Rocks.
I think that the term PinkPoint should stay with trad, but thats me. If you feel that bad about it, levae the draws in and when you get to them, UNCLIP It > Return It to your belt > clip back into the wall > clip rope and then proceed. I hope I did not sound condecending, cause I wasn't. Anyways Rock On! or Red On! or even Pink On! Whatever way you do it.
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jinn
Jun 27, 2003, 5:17 PM
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IMHO....
i dont see much of a difference between the two. ive never led trad, or even followed a leader on trad, so all my experience has been on sport. i almost always place my own draws. whenever theyve been left in, it wasnt because i couldnt place them myself, just a matter of convienance.
as far as it being harder to place your own draws...i agree with 100% but i dont know how much harder? say your leading a sport route, and your going to clip your next bolt, and youve only got enough left to clip the rope into the draw, and not clip the draw first, and then the rope; it stands to reason that your so burnt, your about to fall anyway. i really dont see that much of a difference between taking the time/energy to clip a draw and the rope, versus just clipping the rope.
In reply to: The whole point of sport climbing is to climb the hardest line possible yet at the cutting edge of the sport they are trying to make it easier but still hard.
well wouldnt that be focusing as much on climbing as possible? i mean, if thats the case, then why bother with making a hard route harder by having to clip draws? why not just focus as much energy as possible on the moves?
would you take ascents of realization and other climbs of 5.14 and higher, and label then other than redpoints?
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 27, 2003, 5:18 PM
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People value climbing a route on-sight because it is harder, personally I value a send more when I am putting the draws in for the same reason, particularly on an on-sight. So for me there is a worthwhile distinction between a pink point and a redpoint on a sport climb.
In some senses climbing with pre-placed draws is cheating yourself of the most the route has to offer. Who makes the rules? I do for my own purposes.
Problems with that come into play when you consider that many hard routes either have fixed draws or project draws on them all the time. In a concession to these problems americans have accepted the european standards regarding this. Another reason is that they (americans sport climbers) don’t want to have to work harder then the euros to be able to spray about the same grade.
Placing the draws is not that much more difficult? I would give it at least a letter grade difference and on some routes it is more. (increased pump factor)
You did what you did regardless of what label you place on it.
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vertical_reality
Jun 27, 2003, 5:24 PM
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In reply to: How about the theory that climbing a 14a without pre placed draws would be as hard as a 14d with them?
Well I wonder what the real rating for Realization is since Chris "pink-pointed" it. Eveyone thinks it's a 5.15... but by your logic maybe it should be a 5.16.*
* Don't turn this into a Realization grade thread!
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bumblie
Jun 27, 2003, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: No one cares about red point vs pink point because this is called ROCK CLIMBING not DRAW PLACING.
By this rationale, why not just toprope everything. :roll:
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holmeslovesguinness
Jun 27, 2003, 6:21 PM
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The distinction between the two terms only really applies to trad climbing - nobody cares if draws are pre-placed on a sport climb. On the other hand (IMHO), a trad climb ceases to be trad if all the gear is preplaced.
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rockprodigy
Jun 27, 2003, 6:50 PM
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On overhanging routes, it can be very difficult to clean the draws, sometimes requiring one to TR the route just to clean them. In these cases, it is impractical to clean the draws.
Many modern sports climbs have bolts placed in a position that assumes the clip will be made with the draw hung...i.e. the bolt is 6"-8" out of reach of the "clipping stance". placing the draws every go on a route like this would definitely be harder...and really stupid.
Finally, magazines don't metion the difference between PP and RP because everyone knows an RP of a sports climb was done with the draws pre-hung. It might be noted if the draws were placed on lead, but that would be an exception.
This is the accepted standard. I'm sorry if you don't like it. Feel free to clean and re-place the draws every time on your projects, but please don't do it if others are waiting for that route.
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roninthorne
Jun 27, 2003, 7:48 PM
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In reply to: Looks to me like you answered your own question. Sport climbing is about the climbing, not about putting up the draws.
Really, spud? Sorry, but not only was your answer condescending as hell, it was also about as accurate as most of the dis-information you spew here on RC.com. I can't touch you on the latter... you're a master of beta... but on the former I can offer you the same attitude, in spades...
Your rationalization is perfectly understandable, jt512. You make it patently obvious that you are all about the numbers, not the style or spirit of the sport, with a moniker centered around a grade... one that was cutting edge about ten years ago, BTW.
To paraphrase, since when do you make up the definition of what sport climbing is? Seems like it would be a bit more accurate to define sport climbing as a method of ascent in which expansion bolts and hanger take the place of traditional gear in order to ascend otherwise unprotectable faces.
In reply to: Almost all redpoints are done with the draws preplaced at all levels of sport climbing. I don't know a single experienced sport climber who would clean his draws after an unsuccessful redpoint attempt, just so he could put them back up again on his next attempt. The notion is ridiculous.
Ah, yes... the old "I don't know of one, so it ain't been or being done" line, so popular among the profile-padding spraylords of online rock...
Try this one on for size, then: I've been climbing sport routes for about a decade, bubba.... that experienced enough for ya? And, as I so ably demonstrated (read "rammed down your throat") in another thread, I've put up more than my share of lines, as well. In all of that time, I have never, preplaced the draws for a FA. By rough estimate that'd be 0 preplaced draws for 50+ routes. So much for your conventional tunnel-vision wisdom.
In reply to: Since when is climbing on pre-placed draws cheating? Since when do you make up the rules?
I don't make up the rules... some cats far harder than I will ever be took care of that a couple of decades ago. And what they said was, it ain't cheating... it just ain't a redpoint, either.
In reply to: Why not at least differentiate between a red and pink point when reporting in the mags?
Because "Sharma Pinkpoints Realization" doesn't really have a ring to it, does it? Doesn't make ya want to run tight out and buy his shoes/rope/hair gel/crash pad/laxative/ ad infinitum... And climbing, these days, especially at the "cutting edge", is all about the PR, baby... glossy shots, sponsorships, and the big $$$.
In reply to: Because (1) nobody but 5.8 gumbies cares about whether the draws are pre-placed or not and (2) virtually all hard redpoints are done with the draws pre-placed. -Jay
To paraphrase: "If you can't climb at a certain arbitrarily chosen grade, then your opinion doesn't count, and we, the ones who can climb above that grade, all agreed long ago to say that the Emperor's new clothes are lovely... so there!"
And, again, we can all stand; awed, humbled, and more than a little amused at the presumptuous egotism of jt512.
Who cares if they preplace the QDs? I care, poser, and a lot of folks whose water you couldn't carry also care, so pull you Teva out of your mouth and step down from your soapbox. I don't put up routes that way, and neither do a lot of other folks who climb 5.8 for a warm-up, in street shoes.
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keinangst
Jun 27, 2003, 8:00 PM
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Can someone answer me this, then:
If clipping the draws is not intended to be an INHERENT part of the difficulty of a send, then why are there only bolts in the rock? Why not bolts with permanent wire runners coming out of them? That would accomplish the same thing as a pre-placed draw, and would stand the test of time more stoutly.
That seems to answer itself, IMO.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 27, 2003, 8:02 PM
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Cleaning the draws from a steep project is pretty easy if you know how to jumar. getting them back up there witha stick clip and aiders will save your strength for the climbing and the crag is draw free while you are at work all week. Just a hint for access sensitve areas. as for the rest of the debate keep fireing away. :D
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cracklover
Jun 27, 2003, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: Who cares if they preplace the QDs?
I think if it makes a difference to you, personally, you should acknowledge that by differentiating terms. But to each his own.
You know what this thread needs? BURT BRONSON. He could tell us how a rose (whether pink or red) by any other name would only be fit for girly-non-SERIOUS-climbers. And that would pretty much sum up the whole thing, wouldn't it?
GO
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mikedano
Jun 27, 2003, 8:35 PM
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Pink point, red point, headpoint, flash ect.
These words are essentially meaningless. Pick a climbing "style" or "ethic" YOU are comfortable with, and then climb like that. Don't worry what it's called, or what the "rules" are--because there are no rules.
Personally, I don't care whether the draws are preplaced or not, although I would prefer them to be preplaced because that makes things easier.
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