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trad_mike
Jun 27, 2003, 8:35 PM
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I've got to take exception to kalcario's comment:
When you do a trad climb, you only get full credit for the lead if you place all the pro from the ground up during the lead, right? The climb is rated 10 or 11 or whatever because the difficulty of hanging out and placing the gear is factored into the grade.
Trad climbs are given an absolute rating based on the hardest move in the climb, not an assumed rating that factors in length of the climb or placing pro or level of continuity.
Pink point is not used as a term in sport climbing anymore. Fixed draws on hard climbs are the norm in the US and Europe. If you send a sport climb without hanging or falling, it's a redpoint.
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kalcario
Jun 27, 2003, 9:04 PM
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* Trad climbs are given an absolute rating based on the hardest move in the climb, not an assumed rating that factors in length of the climb or placing pro or level of continuity.*
Both trad and sport routes are in fact graded on move difficulty, length, pump factor and other factors besides. You rate boulder problems based on single moves, not routes.
As an example, the enduro corner pitch on Astroman is rated 11c, yet the single move difficulty is about 10a. It is the length of the pitch, its continuity and the difficulty in stopping and placing gear that make it 11c. By your rationale it would be rated 10a. Which it ain't.
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altaesque
Jun 27, 2003, 9:32 PM
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Apparently this is what climbers in the east resort to when it rains the entire spring. Instead of worrying about something as silly as the red/pink point debate why don't you work on your spelling...oh, and maybe climb something hard. At least then you will realize the beauty of an in-situ draw...Remember its about the climbing, not the clips!
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rockprodigy
Jun 27, 2003, 11:33 PM
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In reply to: Occasionally I can actually skip a whole move if the draw is pre-placed. More often, clipping the draw to the hanger doesn't require a whole extra move, but it does require me to pull up a little higher than I would have to if the draw were there.
The difficulty you face in clipping the draws is completely arbitrary...it's based on the equipper's decision to place the bolt there. What if he would placed the bolt 8" lower? Maybe he intended for you to have the draws pre-placed.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 27, 2003, 11:33 PM
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This is realy starting to bug the shitt out of me. anyone who thinks that proper gramer and good spelling have anything to do with climbing has their head up their butt. as far as the climbing with preplaced draws ,it is fun and definatly easier than placeing them as you go but it definately takes away from the challange of some climbs. I put up a 10b sport climb that is pumpy and extremly overhung though juggy but the 4th clip is really exciteing when you are trying to reach up there with the draw were as with a long draw in place it is easy. In this case part of the excitement of the climb is reaching that piton. (I used a pin there as there is a good crack.) many climbs are like that. Again I feel that for the newsworthy climbs it would be pretty special if they were done in the style of clipping the draws as you climb. Basicly it would just raise the bar a bit. The hardest climbs would get a lettergrade or 2 or 3 harder without even needing to set new rt's :D PS why would you accuse me of makeing up the rules. All I am doing is bringing up some thoughts for discussion.
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extrememountaineer
Jun 28, 2003, 12:22 AM
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None of you know what you are talking about! A pinkpoint is when a female does it and a redpoint is when a guy does it. Geeez!
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chitlinsconcarne
Jun 28, 2003, 1:16 AM
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In reply to: Can someone answer me this, then: If clipping the draws is not intended to be an INHERENT part of the difficulty of a send, then why are there only bolts in the rock? Why not bolts with permanent wire runners coming out of them? That would accomplish the same thing as a pre-placed draw, and would stand the test of time more stoutly. That seems to answer itself, IMO.
Thats an honest question, and the answer is..back in the 80's we did equipe entire routes that way and the practice was still being used somewhat into the 90's. Over time the fixed gear was stolen and people complained about the visual issues in having permanent wires hanging down. So..all sports evolve and sport climbing did also. As it happens, it evolved towards the direction of pure gymnastic difficulty and the distinction between red and pinkpoints was retired along with our mullets and patterned lycra. In fact, the idea that there is no difference in difficulty between red and pinkpointing is an artificial convention, but an artificial convention that has become accepted in the sport as it is practiced now.
In fact, the whole idea of basing grades on the basis of clipping difficulty has problems of its own. For instance, I know of routes that I could change, not by letter grades but by number grades just by relocating the bolts to the WRONG spot. Does that mean that the climbing got harder? And what about the bolts you skip? If one person feels comfortable blowing off a clip to run for the anchors, is their ascent less proud than one made by someone who wasn't as confidant?
Bottom line, climbing is a game with rules. Current rule is that you get no extra grade points in free climbing for the difficulty of placing pro.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 29, 2003, 2:40 AM
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good post chitlins. Usualy on a big money send, the climber gets bravery points for skipping clips and as it should, it usualy makes the glossy pages of HOT FLASHES. I would never bother cleaning the draws personaly between attempts on a rt that is at my limit but once I have it wired I will usualy get a lot of satisfaction from from cruising it and placeing the draws as I climb. Last fall I watched Pete W/ the dreds Climb Urban Surfer 13d as smoothly as I climb easy 5.10 and it pretty much blew me away. He was just haveing fun. I forgot to ask gavin if he followed it as we didn't stick arround, headded up to Jimmy cliff. It's all good.
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renobdarb
Jun 29, 2003, 3:14 AM
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In reply to: That's really what this conversation boils down to, right? Well, I don't make the rules, but I can answer honestly. It makes a difference to me, on my ascents. Perhaps this is because at 5'7" I'm shorter than the average guy. Occasionally I can actually skip a whole move if the draw is pre-placed. More often, clipping the draw to the hanger doesn't require a whole extra move, but it does require me to pull up a little higher than I would have to if the draw were there. And for me, climbing at my limit is all about moving through the hardest moves as quickly as possible and finding the best rests. Any extra time it takes to place draws makes a difference. So honestly, for me it makes a difference. Because of that fact, when I make notes in my guidebook, some say OS, some RP, and some PP.
for me (and i do mean, "for me", and not "for everyone"), a route is only as hard as it's hardest move (crux)... typically, in sport climbing, clipping the draws is not part of the crux... bolts usually are placed just before the crux (in case of a fall while climbing during the crux) and right after the crux... so, in a properly bolted sport climb, clipping the draws shouldn't be considered part of the crux... in that respect, a climb shouldn't be downgraded because of pre-placing draws... this is why "pinkpointing" has become an obsolete term...
i do think height can upgrade/downgrade the rating of a climb, as "cracklover" said... but because it takes a shorter person an extra move to clip a bolt doesn't mean placing the gear makes the climb harder; it means making the move makes the climb harder, but not clipping the draw into the bolt...
route ratings are very subjective, and mainly are flexible due to height differences... but sport routes are not rated on how difficult the draw clippings are, but how difficult the moves are...
in summery, sport routes should be bolted to protect the climber, not challange the climber...
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 29, 2003, 3:33 AM
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Sorry Reno. You are wrong. It is harder to clip draws to bolts and then clip the rope to the draws than it is to just clip the rope into pre placed draws. Allmost everyone agrees on this. It dosen't make it right or wrong, It just is. In some cases it does add a degree of extra pump, in other cases it adds a degree of extra bravery which in turn will affect most climbers performance. Sometimes it is both. We all know about the climb with the (scary clip) and we all know how it fccks with you head. That is a part of that climb and even if the fear is only precived in your mind ( most falls arn't as bad as your mind try's to tell you they will be) that fear will affect your climbing. Putting a 4ft draw that is velcroed to the key hold, followed bt a 2 ft draw and then a quick draw, all on the same bolt, allmost ammounts to a top rope of that section of the climb.
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 3:36 AM
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I gotta say this thread is funny!!!!
renobdarb
a sport route is not rated for the crux move(like a boulder problem is) it is rated for the total difficulty of the route(like a sport climb is)
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stickclipper
Jun 29, 2003, 4:11 AM
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Roninthorne - you're right on! I liked your post immensely. Like "only" climbing 5.8 has anything to do with this thread or anything else. What a loser!
To the main thread: In my opinion this is a good topic to discuss. Why? Because, in climbing, STYLE MATTERS! For me, the sense of achievement is much higher when I've done a route in good style. Real quick, from best to worst style:
solo - onsight - flash - redpoint - pinkpoint - hangdog
*This is NOT to encourage soloing to anyone, but hats off to those who do.
You people who think there's no difference between redpoint and pinkpoint probably think there's no difference between a beta flash and an onsight. Why take the easy path? Challenge yourself. And if you want to take the easy path, then by all means do so, because no one's going to make the decision for you. I concede that preplaced draws are a part of sportie redpointing (I'm guilty - sometimes). It is true that, particularly on harder sport climbs the draws invariably stay on the bolts.
I guess you just need to be comfortable with your own ethics.
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renobdarb
Jun 29, 2003, 8:53 AM
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In reply to: Sorry Reno. You are wrong. It is harder to clip draws to bolts and then clip the rope to the draws than it is to just clip the rope into pre placed draws. Allmost everyone agrees on this. It dosen't make it right or wrong, It just is. In some cases it does add a degree of extra pump, in other cases it adds a degree of extra bravery which in turn will affect most climbers performance. Sometimes it is both.
i got a kick out of this... i really did... thanks for the good laugh...
if i'm wrong, then everyone in the professional climbing world is wrong, so perhapse you should set them straight as well with your devine wizdom...
this was only my opinion, but it's an opinion shared by many others... just because you feel that lifting your arm one extra time to clip a draw into a bolt makes you right is absolutely laughable...
In reply to: We all know about the climb with the (scary clip) and we all know how it fccks with you head. That is a part of that climb and even if the fear is only precived in your mind ( most falls arn't as bad as your mind try's to tell you they will be) that fear will affect your climbing.
most sport climbs (and i use the word "most" loosely) are designed and bolted so that the climber can focus on the moves rather than the fear of falling (where a trad route a climber must keep a fall in mind in order to determine where and/or when to place gear)...
In reply to: Putting a 4ft draw that is velcroed to the key hold, followed bt a 2 ft draw and then a quick draw, all on the same bolt, allmost ammounts to a top rope of that section of the climb.
absolutely. but please don't make me laugh any harder... you're taking this completely out of context and blowing it out of proportion. this has nothing to do with the obsolete term of "pinkpointing"...
In reply to: renobdarb a sport route is not rated for the crux move(like a boulder problem is) it is rated for the total difficulty of the route(like a sport climb is)
so what would you rate a climb that had, say, three or four 5.9 moves at different points on the route? i would call this a "sustained" 5.9 rather than a "one-move-wonder"... does this make it harder? for ratings sake, no...
bottom line: placing gear shouldn't factor into route ratings, which is why the trend of pre-placing draws to redpoint difficult routes has become widely accepted...
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roninthorne
Jun 29, 2003, 11:09 AM
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In the end, what we are seeing again and again is the admission that, no matter how much skewed logic and self-justifying rationalization you pile on the issue, dispensing with the difference between red and pinkpoints is simply a matter of general agreement among sportclimbers working routes in the upper grades to make it easier for them to do the climbs.
"See, we climb way harder than you do (even if we have to work the same line day after day for weeks to do it), so your opinion doesn't matter, even if 90% of the climbing community is made up of people who don't climb the way we do. It keeps us from getting scared, it's real convenient, and it let us reach 5.14 in like half the time it took to raise the bar from 5.10+ to 5.12, back in the days when people thought you actually had to place the draws as you went. Now, if we all just pretend that it's "evolution", that we're "redefining our sport", instead of just calling it the cop-out that it is... well, maybe eventually the rest of the climbing community will swallow it as well."
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jipstyle
Jun 29, 2003, 4:09 PM
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In reply to: I guess you just need to be comfortable with your own ethics.
That is the most intelligent thing I've read in this thread so far.
Ideally, we climb for ourselves ... so we should each decide whether we enjoy clipping draws, or having them preclipped.
If, for example, Climber A decides that she climbs purely for the joy of moving over rock, and doesn't give a damn about clipping pro, then she should toprope her favourite climbs. If Climber B enjoys the rush of clipping his rope while sketched out and anticipating a long fall, then he should lead his sport route.
In other words ... go out and climb in whatever way makes you happiest, and stop arguing about it on an online forum. Sheesh. : :wink:
And yes, I see the silliness in arguing that we should stop arguing. :mrgreen:
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kalcario
Jun 29, 2003, 4:29 PM
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*Now, if we all just pretend that it's "evolution", that we're "redefining our sport", instead of just calling it the cop-out that it is... well, maybe eventually the rest of the climbing community will swallow it as well.*
Would you say that freeing El Cap routes is evolution? And everybody who's done it so far are or were...that's right son, hard core sport climbers. Pull your head out.
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bobd1953
Jun 29, 2003, 6:00 PM
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In reply to: Would you say that freeing El Cap routes is evolution? And everybody who's done it so far are or were...that's right son, hard core sport climbers. Pull your head out.
I agree, the funny thing about these Johnny-come-lately-trad-climbers is that they think its a big deal to climb 5.10! Talk about being stagnant!
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alpnclmbr1
Jun 29, 2003, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: renobdarb a sport route is not rated for the crux move(like a boulder problem is) it is rated for the total difficulty of the route(like a sport climb is) so what would you rate a climb that had, say, three or four 5.9 moves at different points on the route? i would call this a "sustained" 5.9 rather than a "one-move-wonder"... does this make it harder? for ratings sake, no...
I can handog my way through a 5.13+ and do all the moves, does this make me a 5.13+ climber? No.
So it is your opinion that endurance is not factored into a sport climbing grade? Do you climb on another planet or what?
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 30, 2003, 7:02 PM
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Reno; I'm not sure why you feel the need to be sarcastic. You are still wrong about the added dificulty factor and no ammount of sarcasim will change that. This is not just my opinion but the opinion of everyone else on this post. Yes, putting the draws up is going to increse the pump factor which will in turn make you fall if you are allready at your limit. I accept that this is how it is done these days and I do it myself but I don't kid myself into thinking that it dosen't change the dificulty factor. As for the scenerio of the double and tripple length draws, they are fairly common (We used a set up like that on a headpoint last year) and the only reason for using a set up like that is to control fear. If you wern't scared you would either be brave enough to climb higher to clip the shortest draw or just clip the long draw and climb through to the next bolt.
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jt512
Jun 30, 2003, 9:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sorry Reno. You are wrong. It is harder to clip draws to bolts and then clip the rope to the draws than it is to just clip the rope into pre placed draws. Allmost everyone agrees on this. It dosen't make it right or wrong, It just is. In some cases it does add a degree of extra pump, in other cases it adds a degree of extra bravery which in turn will affect most climbers performance. Sometimes it is both. i got a kick out of this... i really did... thanks for the good laugh... if i'm wrong, then everyone in the professional climbing world is wrong, so perhapse you should set them straight as well with your devine wizdom...
Brad, you are wrong. Neither common sense nor personal experience support you. Having to put the draws up is harder than just having to clip the rope into them. If that were not the case, there would be little reason to argue whether there should be a distinction between redpointing and pinkpointing.
In reply to: this was only my opinion, but it's an opinion shared by many others... just because you feel that lifting your arm one extra time to clip a draw into a bolt makes you right is absolutely laughable...
Elsewhere, alpnclmbr1 wrote that hanving to put up the draws often increases the difficulty of the route by at least one letter grade. I agree.
In reply to: most sport climbs (and i use the word "most" loosely) are designed and bolted so that the climber can focus on the moves rather than the fear of falling...
Basically that is correct, but that does not mean that putting up the draws makes the climbing harder.
In reply to: In reply to: renobdarb a sport route is not rated for the crux move(like a boulder problem is) it is rated for the total difficulty of the route(like a sport climb is) so what would you rate a climb that had, say, three or four 5.9 moves at different points on the route? i would call this a "sustained" 5.9 rather than a "one-move-wonder"... does this make it harder? for ratings sake, no...
I would rate it 5.9. The fact that the 5.9 moves are separated by easier sections means it is not "sustained." It just has several 5.9 cruxes. A more relevant question is what if it had a dozen consecutive 5.9 moves, would it still be 5.9? And the answer is, by modern rating conventions, no. It would be rated 5.10. By the way, somewhere in the middle of those 12 5.9 moves, there's going to be a bolt. Now, if 5.9 is near your limit, and you are barely making it through this section, I don't think you can reasonably argue that it would not be easier to have the crux draw pre-placed.
In reply to: bottom line: placing gear shouldn't factor into route ratings...
Placing gear doesn't factor into the ratings, but that isn't the issue. All but the easiest sport routes are harder if you have to put up the draws.
-Jay
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climbsomething
Jun 30, 2003, 9:25 PM
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In reply to: Because quickdraws aren't pro. The pro is fixed.
I stopped here because, quite simply, Kalcario is right and the rest of this thread is filler.
To reiterate, though: The pro on sport climbs is fixed; you're not adding pro to the climb while you're on it. Pro is placed only once (generally) over a sport climb's 'life'- when the bolts are drilled. The draws aren't pro. They are just what's attaching the pro to the rope. (as Kal referenced by saying you don't get extra credit for clipping the biner to your cam or hex sling...)
E.O.D. Next!
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roninthorne
Jun 30, 2003, 9:54 PM
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In reply to: Nope... I'd say it was an inevitable progression. Nothing about the form and funtion of the sport changed with Lynn's ascent check your definition of "Evolution"... you'll find that in a b-o-o-k, 'kay? [quote="kalcario"] And everybody who's done it so far are or were...that's right son, hard core sport climbers. Pull your head out.
"Everyone climbing this one climb, in this style which neither supports nor debunks my position, is a hard climber." The grade at which you send does not lend you added powers of perception, or the right to change said definitions unilaterally. The gradual shift to eliminate pinkpoint was something overlooked by the general community... don't confuse apathy for the ethical vagaries of a group of obsessives with tacit acceptance.
And don't ever call me "son"... for one thing, you'd have to be at least 54 years old to claim that one, and you're not nearly that grown-up, and, for another, unlike your own, my momma threw things like you in the dustbin, not the bed. Now pull your foot out, buck.
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kalcario
Jun 30, 2003, 10:39 PM
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*The grade at which you send does not lend you added powers of perception, or the right to change said definitions unilaterally. The gradual shift to eliminate pinkpoint was something overlooked by the general community... don't confuse apathy for the ethical vagaries of a group of obsessives with tacit acceptance.*
I regret to inform you, since you seem to be unaware, that the only ethic in sport climbing is that there is no such thing as ethics in sport climbing. Trying to impose them is like approaching a prostitute with flowers and candy. Laughable and pathetic.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 1, 2003, 12:46 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Because quickdraws aren't pro. The pro is fixed. I stopped here because, quite simply, Kalcario is right and the rest of this thread is filler. To reiterate, though: The pro on sport climbs is fixed; you're not adding pro to the climb while you're on it. Pro is placed only once (generally) over a sport climb's 'life'- when the bolts are drilled. The draws aren't pro. They are just what's attaching the pro to the rope. (as Kal referenced by saying you don't get extra credit for clipping the biner to your cam or hex sling...) E.O.D. Next! In reply to: Pinkpoint - n.vb. A clean (no-falls) ascent of a route on lead with gear pre-placed. The climber need only clip the rope into the preplaced protection while climbing. Note: This term has disappeared from sport climbing terminology with all clean leads called redpoints. Redpoint - n/vb. a clean ascent with no falls, placing protection while climbing.
Ok fine, if you want to call a pinkpoint a redpoint, that is fine, do what you want. However, using circular reasoning to redefine other words to support your argument is going to far.
A quickdraw is protectionIn reply to: Protection - n. Gear placed on a climb to protect the climber in the event of a fall. ie: nuts, pitons, cams, bolts, quickdraws. In reply to: Fixed protection - n. gear that is left on the rock for future use.
In reply to: Difficulty, rating, grade. = I think we all understand the definition of this.
Changing the definition of a word does not change physical reality. Choosing to ignore an increase in difficulty does not mean that increase in difficulty is not there.
Therefore by changing the definition of a redpoint we lowered the difficulty for a given grade. And if modern grades take this into account then doing a route while placing the draws means you are climbing a harder grade.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 1, 2003, 12:55 AM
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