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evoltobmilc


Jul 2, 2003, 8:00 AM
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Bombs Away!!!
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OK, more ethics questions.

When is trundling rocks considered cleaning and when is it just the destructive side in us all coming out??

My buddy and I put up a route where there's a section of loose and expando flakes- really discontinuous climbing. Off to the right, maybe 3 feet (my partner could tap on it with his hammer if he leaned far enough) is a HUGE freakin' rock, maybe 6 feet tall, 1 foot thick, and 3 feet wide that is just kinda sitting there, not connected at all. Now, it doesn't pose a serious problem to me, or him, cause we know it's there, and we're not belaying underneath it. However, if some moron went 1 move off-route to the right, he'd be nailing right behind the giant death rock. So, as the first ascentionists, do we have the responsibility to safely defuse this hazard?? Furthermore, it's in a NP, so we want to disturb as little as possible but pushing this thing off is no little deal.

So, what say you all?? Pete, hope to hear from you on this one, as well, as your post on drilling had some really interesting info!


scottcody


Jul 2, 2003, 8:17 AM
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trundle the bizatch... and take a video. :twisted:

Honestly, it is a judgement call. Nobody on this board can see the route that you a describing, and thus can only speak in generalities. and in general you should minimize your impact.

Note the lose rock in your route description. It is every climbers responsibility to watch out for their own safety.


melonhead


Jul 2, 2003, 9:25 AM
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Yeah man,
Let the sucker ride!!! :P

Don't be a "Hippie" about it. Go up to it, toss the sucker in full on good style. That is, letting loose a psycotic yell at the top of your lungs to remind the world what a stellar cool time you're having.

Melon


epic_ed


Jul 2, 2003, 9:39 AM
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My vote is "bring the crow bar." Just for the fun of it.

Ed


Partner coldclimb


Jul 2, 2003, 9:39 AM
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If you do it right, you could play the victim and get video or pics from such an angle that it looks like the rock just fell while you were climbing, and the belayer had to dive for his life while still holding the break, turning them into a hero. :D

Of course, that seems like it would be really difficult to do safely unless it involved a bit of digital editing on the computer. ;)


bdawg


Jul 2, 2003, 9:48 AM
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Just use a dummy, and have it actually land on top of it :) make sure to pack it full of blood packets tho :)


thedesertnomad


Jul 2, 2003, 10:07 AM
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I can see the idea behind not letting it fly (to preserve the beauty of the rock) yeah right... a strong wind or other falling rock can loosen it up just as bad, and at a time where it can't be prepared for. I know of a climb in the Sandias where I was about a third of the way up a block (8 feet tall, 3 feet wide, 3 feet deep) using the offwidth crack between it and the wall to climb. All of a sudden the sucker moved... a lot. Once moved... the climb would be easy, but with it as it was and the rope drag that I had it would have been impossible to climb with it there. The only reason for me not dropping it was the fact that I had to sling it and retreat off of it (worst fear EVER) and the fact that my belayer would have been squished like a bug some 75 feet below it. I told him that if I were to yell "ROCK!!!!!" don't take it lightly :shock: :shock: :shock:

I would say for safety sake... let it fly my man. Definitely shoot a video of it... I would say a 2 camera shoot... one from the top and the other zoomed in from a safe distance on the ground!!!!


mikedano


Jul 2, 2003, 10:21 AM
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As my wife and I were almost killed just last weekend by MASSIVE rockfall, I have a strong opinion on the matter. If your route is good please clean it for the rest of us! All future ascenders will thank you.

Also, you should take pictures and post them cuz that would be cool.


scottcody


Jul 2, 2003, 10:29 AM
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In reply to:
Just use a dummy, and have it actually land on top of it :) make sure to pack it full of blood packets tho :)
:shock:

that would be just plain RADDDDD. period


alpnclmbr1


Jul 2, 2003, 10:36 AM
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In reply to:
OK, more ethics questions.

When is trundling rocks considered cleaning and when is it just the destructive side in us all coming out??

Just to put this in perspective, I rarely aid climb and I have only done a few FAs.

Most of the responses have been from punks that think it would be cool to trundle it. (If you would do it for fun, in my book your a punk.) This response is to counteract the previous posts.

Your talking about a maybe 1500 lb rock? And it sounds like it is obviously loose. It has been there for 500 + years, it is not going to go anywhere by itself.

You do not have the ablility to protect a clueless idiot from himself. Loose blocks that you have to be careful about are part of climbing. So offhand I would say leave it alone.
As said previously it is a judgement call, just be clear about your motivations.


melonhead


Jul 2, 2003, 3:19 PM
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Well if I'm a "punk", you best walk around the crag with your head looking up....... :twisted:


dingus


Jul 2, 2003, 3:32 PM
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In reply to:
So, as the first ascentionists, do we have the responsibility to safely defuse this hazard?? Furthermore, it's in a NP, so we want to disturb as little as possible but pushing this thing off is no little deal.

Here's a surprising answer... it depends.

Sport route at a sport cliff? Clean it up!

Destined to be popular moderate trad? Clean it up!

Aid route? Back country? Dangerous impact zone? Worried about destroying the lower part of your route, or hitting your base camp? It's not even on-route?

Leave it be. Follow the example of a noted Sierra first ascenionist, who notes on one topo: "The Death Chip - do not touch!" Now, if you were gonna repeat this climb, would you touch it? Maybe that's the best way to fulfill this duty that calls you? Or another tack would be just don't tell anyone about the route at all!

DMT


Partner coldclimb


Jul 2, 2003, 3:55 PM
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It has been there for 500 + years, it is not going to go anywhere by itself.

There used to be a route in Archangel Valley (http://www.rockclimbing.com/routes/listArea.php?AreaID=2770) on the upper diamond that went up for I think three, maybe four pitches. I say used to be, because most of the side of the mountain fell off about four years ago. Check out Faust's pic of the area (http://www.rockclimbing.com/photos.php?Action=Show&PhotoID=15075) to see the huge fan of freshly exposed rock, on the left. Just because it's been there a while does not mean it will stay.


maculated


Jul 2, 2003, 4:03 PM
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Okay, so I was at Lover's Leap last weekend on this popular 5.6-5.7 climb (I don't remember the name) and the second pitch just looked like a death trap to me. Beautiful ledge, but right on the edge was a pile of flakes that were all pinned, you move one, you lose them all. The anchors consisted of putting your gear into expanding flakes or already fallen boulders that I certainly wouldn't trust.

If it were up to me, at that particular belay, I would have drilled some bolts. I never say that, but I spent a while looking for an anchor point I'd be comfortable with.

But, man, I wanted to push off that crap and how. How many people go past these things and USE them as anchors? I was deathly afraid that the rocks would give at this particular time and land squarely on my little crag puppy. When, if a route is popular, would you say it was appropriate to trundle. If it was up to me, I'd hike out there at night, scream 'rock fall' for a while and then push off.

Others who know what route I'm talking about, what do you think?


alpnclmbr1


Jul 2, 2003, 4:11 PM
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I would be willing to bet that if a climber doesn't knock it off, it will still be there in another couple of hundred years at least. Natural rockfall does happen, but not in a way that creates a safety hazard for climbers. The exception is in a recently disturbed rock fall zone.

Melonhead, was that a threat?


neojc


Jul 2, 2003, 5:03 PM
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Rocks Aren't always as solid as you might think take the rock at this site as an example http://www.elfis.net/rnr/rnrx/giantrock.htm


Partner coldclimb


Jul 2, 2003, 5:29 PM
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yeah that's definately a giant rock! :shock: That's crazy how it just broke like that. Kinda wierd to think about. :?


evoltobmilc


Jul 2, 2003, 5:57 PM
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well, I think i'm gonnna push for leaving it, with my partrner. i fwe do climb it again, or make another route go off of it (another 1 or 2 might!!) we'll know about the flake (hUGE FRIGIN' ROCK!!) and we'll make it known in topos.
David


ronamick


Jul 2, 2003, 6:05 PM
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In reply to:
Just use a dummy, and have it actually land on top of it :) make sure to pack it full of blood packets tho :)

If you want to make a truly effective victim dummy, pack it with tomatoes and hamburger. The gore is truly spectacular.


auricpoe


Jul 2, 2003, 6:20 PM
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kick its ass


melonhead


Jul 2, 2003, 6:33 PM
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Not a threat at all :) . Just a reminder to let people know how I feel when someone implies something about myself.

That, and I'm a Jersey boy. Call me a "Punk", and I'm stepping up to the plate.......... :wink:

It's actually all in good fun, and I really meant nothing by it. I have PLENTY of experience with chos, and loose rock. For some reason climbing on "death routes" makes me climb better......falling is NOT an option.

Stay cool,
Melon

O Ya, "bdawg", what is up with your signature? I haven't laughed that hard in years! Very Cool!


caughtinside


Jul 2, 2003, 7:30 PM
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Okay, so I was at Lover's Leap last weekend on this popular 5.6-5.7 climb (I don't remember the name) and the second pitch just looked like a death trap to me. Beautiful ledge, but right on the edge was a pile of flakes that were all pinned, you move one, you lose them all. The anchors consisted of putting your gear into expanding flakes or already fallen boulders that I certainly wouldn't trust.

If it were up to me, at that particular belay, I would have drilled some bolts. I never say that, but I spent a while looking for an anchor point I'd be comfortable with.

But, man, I wanted to push off that crap and how. How many people go past these things and USE them as anchors? I was deathly afraid that the rocks would give at this particular time and land squarely on my little crag puppy. When, if a route is popular, would you say it was appropriate to trundle. If it was up to me, I'd hike out there at night, scream 'rock fall' for a while and then push off.

Others who know what route I'm talking about, what do you think?

The climb at the Leap is Pop bottle. EVERYTHING on that ledge is loose. The ledge is really big, but finding a solid anchor placement is a challenge. Bolts are probably the way to go. But that'd be lots of rock to push off... maybe just leave the blocks and sink two bolts?


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