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mike_gibson
Jul 8, 2003, 12:34 PM
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Can anyone help me in understanding the details of short-roping?
I have a rough idea that you use short-roping for climbing simple 5.0-5.3?? stuff, and that you use a hip belay, keeping rope length to 30?? feet of rope, and use terrain features such as crevaces, trees or boulders to anchor the belayer without actually building a traditional belay anchor.
Is there something important to short-roping that I am missing?
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rrrADAM
Jul 8, 2003, 12:56 PM
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Short roping is when one is lead climbing, above the last piece, and the belayer:
1. Does not feed out slack quick enough, and you end up pulling on them.
-or-
2. Does not give enough slack when you are pulling a roof or severe overhang, so if you fall you are slammed into the wall under the roof.
Notice, not enough slack ??? This is "short roping".
A good belay is more than just catching. It is anticipating what the climber is going to do, and tending the rope accordingly.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 8, 2003, 1:10 PM
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I belive that Mike is talking about the mountainering version of short ropeing were the leader or guide drags the client up the mountain on a short section of the climbing rope. Usualy this means simo climbing with the guide keeping tension on the rope for the client but not placeing any gear. Just relying on the guide being strong.
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climbingbum
Jul 8, 2003, 2:46 PM
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Tradmanclimbs has got it right. With short roping (alpine climbing), the guide and client are tied together with a length of rope. 3-7 m etc depending on terrain. similiar to glacier travel, but with a shorter rope. No protection is placed. The idea is that if the client slips the guide will plant his feet, lean in and tension the rope (which is often held to the side with one hand) and arrest the slip. It's also helpful when directing the client in which route to take....
J
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rrrADAM
Jul 8, 2003, 2:54 PM
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Didn't know that... Learn something everyday. I have heard the term many times, and even use it myself, but always in the context I explained.
Thanx. :wink:
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dingus
Jul 8, 2003, 3:06 PM
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Short roping is a climbing technique employed by rich but incapable climbers to reach summits beyond their physical reach. They basically hire a sherpa (ie. guide) to literally haul them up the mountain. That New York "socialite" Pittman is the poster child for this sort, on that Everest expedition where all those folks died.
Short roping can be likened to training wheels, a "mock lead" on top rope, a diaper, whatever. No self-respecting climber would ever accept a short rope and if they did they would certainly have the good sense not to tell anyone!
DMT
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 8, 2003, 4:13 PM
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I saw a couple of clients being short roped on the walkoff of Fairview dome. Had to be one of the strangest things I've seen, if one of them slipped they all would of gone. Must of been Euro's. Also the AMGA teaches shortroping.(use to anyway)
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mike_gibson
Jul 8, 2003, 4:17 PM
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Thanks for the input, but I kinda think everyone is still a little off track. The way I heard it briefly decscribed is short roping is just a quicker alternative for two climbers to get up a simple 5.0ish route without bothering with pro placements only it would seem to be sligthly safe than simo-climbing in that only one climber moves at a time while the other stays set with a hip belay.
I am basically wondering if anyone has ever used this method and thinks it is a good alternative to simo-climbing or a standard trad lead and are there any tricks to it.
Maybe as an example, the devils tower route El Cracko Diablo has a rather expossed approach that is just 4 to 5.0 but has the possibility of a real good fall. Short roping this would seem to be ideal.
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evoltobmilc
Jul 8, 2003, 5:06 PM
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Dingus and rrrAdam have hit the only two situations that I've ever heard of being called short-roping. I'm pretty sure that what you're describing is just lead climbing without placing pro. This goes faster since you don't place any pro. If the belayer can get an excellent stance, he might be able to catch a short fall- I doubt it. The hip belay can be quick, but I'd use it for short sections of climbing where I'd want a belay, but probably won't fall anyway and I'd definitely throw in at least a 1 piece anchor. The hip belay is tricky- practice it- it hurts. BTW, it's simul-climbing, as in simultaneous.
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mikedano
Jul 8, 2003, 5:10 PM
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I don't know the name for what you're describing, but I understand it.
There are several ways to ascend easy terrain while attempting to be safe. You can:
1, belay all pitches. This takes time.
2, Simul-climb the route. This involves about 50 ft. of rope between the climbers, with each one climbing at the same time. The leader places pro as he/she travels up, while the follower removes those pieces. There is usually between 2-4 pieces of pro between the climbers.
3, solo the climb.
What you're describing is a way to do it, but not necessarily the best way. For example, you will essentially belay each pitch, since the leader will lead it, set up a hip belay, then belay the follower. Repeat. This takes time. Also, the leader will have no protection during his climb (except for the belayer at the base or anchor station) so he'll take a big fall if he goes. In most situations the better way would be to simul-climb the route. This way you're moving faster and you have some pro in the rock, which is what will catch an unexpected fall.
However, I have done what you're describing when I've climbed with my wife. Since I'm much more confident, I can basically solo up to a good hip belay spot, then I hip belay her up to me. This means she will be protected in case of a fall.
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dingus
Jul 8, 2003, 5:11 PM
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In reply to: Thanks for the input, but I kinda think everyone is still a little off track.
Well you're wrong. Maybe you'll come to grips with it eventually.
In reply to: The way I heard it briefly decscribed is short roping is just a quicker alternative for two climbers to get up a simple 5.0ish route without bothering with pro placements only it would seem to be sligthly safe than simo-climbing in that only one climber moves at a time while the other stays set with a hip belay.
You have just given the basic definition of Class 4 lead climbing (rope with no pro).
In reply to: I am basically wondering if anyone has ever used this method and thinks it is a good alternative to simo-climbing or a standard trad lead and are there any tricks to it.
Yes, it is an alternative and I use it extensively, on all sorts of terrain. The most important trick? Don't fall!
DMT
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ontherocks
Jul 8, 2003, 5:25 PM
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In reply to: Short roping is a climbing technique employed by rich but incapable climbers... [SNIP] No self-respecting climber would ever accept a short rope and if they did they would certainly have the good sense not to tell anyone!
I read about this technique on rescue situations, for example, high altitude blindness. I would accept/give a short rope on that case. But the technique, even if not very well known in USA, it is used frequently on Europe, on mountaineering contexts, for scrambling or advancing in general on a difficult terrain, when time is important, and a fall can be a problem.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 8, 2003, 6:05 PM
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The way I have seen it used and the way the AMGA manual shows it used is with 3 to 5 feet of rope between you and the client.
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pico23
Jul 8, 2003, 7:53 PM
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In reply to: Can anyone help me in understanding the details of short-roping? I have a rough idea that you use short-roping for climbing simple 5.0-5.3?? stuff, and that you use a hip belay, keeping rope length to 30?? feet of rope, and use terrain features such as crevaces, trees or boulders to anchor the belayer without actually building a traditional belay anchor. Is there something important to short-roping that I am missing?
I believe you are thinking of 4th classing, simul climbing or a running belay (all the same).
In those you would use about 20-30 meters of rope and the leader places gear while the second simultaneously climbs and cleans it. If it is too short moving efficiently is a pain. If you are climbing roped like this it is pretty important for niether climber to fall but just in case it is also important to keep at least one bomber piece of pro between you. The belays are as you describe. At the top of the pitch, when you will no longer be moving forward, you'd typically just use a natural feature to brace yourself for the belay such as a tree, boulder, ect. I've probably left a lot out of the description but the process is pretty simple once you do it a few times (or even once). Oh, you do need to coil the rope to take up the slack in full length rope. I think it's called a Kiwi coil and it shortens the rope.
Short roping is for rich people who can't climb but want a photo of themselves on a summit. The guide basically hauls them up to the top up some route that they should be able to climb.
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rrrADAM
Jul 8, 2003, 7:58 PM
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In reply to: Maybe as an example, the devils tower route El Cracko Diablo has a rather expossed approach that is just 4 to 5.0 but has the possibility of a real good fall. Short roping this would seem to be ideal.
Funny you use this as an example, as I had to do this there at Devil's Tower, at this same place, because my wife was afraid.
We only had about 8 feet between us, and she would have just yanked me off if she had fallen. Her confidence rose to the point where she could do it though, so it did work, in a way. :wink:
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 8, 2003, 8:18 PM
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In reply to: I believe you are thinking of 4th classing, simul climbing or a running belay (all the same).
They are not the same.
4th class is when you use belay anchors and no intermediate pieces of protection.
Simul-climbing is when you use intermediate pieces of protection and no belay anchors.
A running belay is normal lead climbing.
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badphish
Jul 8, 2003, 8:29 PM
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if he was referring to short-roping in alpine climbing
then the why the fuk didn't he post it in that
forum? oh well, i always thought it was keeping
the leader too tight.
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pico23
Jul 8, 2003, 8:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I believe you are thinking of 4th classing, simul climbing or a running belay (all the same). They are not the same. 4th class is when you use belay anchors and no intermediate pieces of protection. Simul-climbing is when you use intermediate pieces of protection and no belay anchors. A running belay is normal lead climbing.
Nope. According to MFOTH 6th edition page 232. a running belay is exactly what I described. However, in your defense, Rope Techniques by Bill March(don't have the page because my book is missing, DAMN IT :evil: ) does call the standard lead climbing system a running belay.
However, all three terms are used to denote what MFOTH hills calls a running belay.
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deadfish
Jul 8, 2003, 9:00 PM
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Ok, this really isn't that complicated. It's a well defined technique, covered as part of AMGA certification. Described in many places on rec.climbing archives. I don't have an online version of the AMGA Guide's Manual to cut and paste from, but here's a quick link with a decent description of the techniques.
http://www.ar.co.za/articles/shtrope.html
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 8, 2003, 9:02 PM
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I was allways under the impression that short ropeing in Alpine terms was as I stated earlier, A guide or strong leader hauling a client or weaker member of the party up the mountain on a short rope with no pro, just the guides strength as a belay. Short ropeing in sport and tradclimbing generaly has several meanings. #1 Not feeding out rope fast enough when leader is clipping. #2 Not feeding rope out fast enough when leader is climbing quickly or dynoing. #3 Pulling rope in when the leader falls off of an overhang causing said leader to smash into the rock rather than swinging out into space. Simo climbing involves placeing gear on the run while your second follows with the weight of the second acting as the belay provideing that the second does not fall. Neither climber may fall. I belive the origional post was actualy refering to the leader 4th classing an easy section and then quickly bringing up the second with a marginal belay.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 8, 2003, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I believe you are thinking of 4th classing, simul climbing or a running belay (all the same). They are not the same. 4th class is when you use belay anchors and no intermediate pieces of protection. Simul-climbing is when you use intermediate pieces of protection and no belay anchors. A running belay is normal lead climbing. Nope. According to MFOTH 6th edition page 232. a running belay is exactly what I described. However, in your defense, Rope Techniques by Bill March(don't have the page because my book is missing, DAMN IT :evil: ) does call the standard lead climbing system a running belay. However, all three terms are used to denote what MFOTH hills calls a running belay.
The distinction between 4th and 5th class is using intermediate gear. (class six is aid climbing)(MTFOH doesn't mention fourth class as being a running belay)
The term running belay first came into use with the advent of 5th class climbing and is where the term runner came from. "basic and advanced rockclimbing" by royal robbins if I recall correctly is the first place I heard that term.
Simul-climbing is a relatively new term.
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pico23
Jul 8, 2003, 11:20 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I believe you are thinking of 4th classing, simul climbing or a running belay (all the same). They are not the same. 4th class is when you use belay anchors and no intermediate pieces of protection. Simul-climbing is when you use intermediate pieces of protection and no belay anchors. A running belay is normal lead climbing. Nope. According to MFOTH 6th edition page 232. a running belay is exactly what I described. However, in your defense, Rope Techniques by Bill March(don't have the page because my book is missing, DAMN IT :evil: ) does call the standard lead climbing system a running belay. However, all three terms are used to denote what MFOTH hills calls a running belay. I will stick with common usage.
Common usage involves all three terms to describe the same thing. Possibly different terms are from different parts of the world such as half rope and double rope, Krab and biner, torch and headlamp, stove and cooker (i think that is what the brits call a stove if I remember my partners terminology correctly), and any of the million different terms for the same knot from different geographic regions. It might not be right but once it is accepted it becomes correct. At this point I don't believe either of the three is incorrect and I believe all three are common usage.
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pico23
Jul 8, 2003, 11:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I believe you are thinking of 4th classing, simul climbing or a running belay (all the same). They are not the same. 4th class is when you use belay anchors and no intermediate pieces of protection. Simul-climbing is when you use intermediate pieces of protection and no belay anchors. A running belay is normal lead climbing. Nope. According to MFOTH 6th edition page 232. a running belay is exactly what I described. However, in your defense, Rope Techniques by Bill March(don't have the page because my book is missing, DAMN IT :evil: ) does call the standard lead climbing system a running belay. However, all three terms are used to denote what MFOTH hills calls a running belay. The distinction between 4th and 5th class is using intermediate gear. (class six is aid climbing)(MTFOH doesn't mention fourth class as being a running belay) The term running belay first came into use with the advent of 5th class climbing
Oddly on page 230 in MFOTH the authors address this issue.
"The techniques described in this chapter are aimed primarily at leading on 5th class rock routes."
...
"Depending on your ability and confidence, you will have a certain amount of latitude in catagorizing your climb and thus choosing your method of leading it...Perhaps categorizing an exposed third class scramble as a technical climb and placing protection while being belayed up the route...A master climber, on the other hand, might choose to scramble a moderate 5th class route where other mountaineers would call for a rope."
...
While this might seem trivial I tend to agree. My partner and I chose to free solo some 5th class rock (2 pitches) on a climb but simul climbed or used a running belay on the 4th class stuff at the top because I was unsure of the route and what it entailed. IMO, the 4th class stuff was at least as hard as the two 5th class pitches (perhaps we were off route) but I'd climbed those pitches before and was confident in my ability to solo.
Nevertheless, I don't see a distinction between simul climbing 4th class using a running belay or 5th class. It's the same technique regardless of the class, the only difference is the confidence of the climbers doing it.
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alpnclmbr1
Jul 8, 2003, 11:38 PM
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Still doesn't mention fourth class. the sixth edition doesn't have a chart defining each class, the older ones do.
And no there is not a difference between simul climbing 4th and fifth class.
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bumpkin
Jul 9, 2003, 2:47 AM
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probably redundant but whatever....
This is what I think of as short-roping:
The situation: many, many routes in the Canadian Rockies, say the East Ridge of Temple. The route is very long and thus there is a premium on getting up fast. Most of it is "third-class", but there will be the odd difficult section... so you don't feel like solo-ing it all. If you pitch it out, you will never top out. Or maybe you will some days later. You pretty much want to simul-solo as much as you're happy with, but you keep roped in and roped in short (hence "short-roping"). If you hit a tricky spot, you can place an intermediate piece or get a quick belay. Keeping it short makes for easy communication, which is key. How short? I guess it depends. I have my rope organized so that you can quickly add some length, if it looks like the tricky bit is a bit longer.
Yes the guides do this, but this is not limited to a guide/client situation. Its a really smart way to quickly and flexibly move from simul-soloing, simul-climbing with intermediate pieces and belaying and back again.
So, yeah, I've always heard the term used in an alpine climbing context, but not limited to guide/client and certainly never disparagingly.... certainly is a key technique for the Cdn. Rockies anyways.
That link from the adventure racing website is a bit puzzling. What's described seems more like walking a dog on a leash.
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