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kalcario
Jul 9, 2003, 9:25 PM
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5.15a? Light duty. This guy from Malaga is calling 15c for his 250 foot long one pitch route that overhangs the base by 90 feet. Took him 3 years and he supposedly put up a 15a before. The link:
http://desnivel.com/object.php?o=8157
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jono13
Jul 9, 2003, 9:29 PM
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kind of a useless link if you dont speak spanish eh?
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kalcario
Jul 9, 2003, 9:33 PM
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*kind of a useless link if you dont speak spanish eh?*
http://www.worldlingo.com/wl/pages/T1/G0/UP46167/P1/l/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html
not perfect but easier than exercising your brain I guess...
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styndall
Jul 9, 2003, 9:50 PM
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In reply to: Thus until the meeting (after the ceilings other 30 meters come from collapse), even between last surely and the chain, already in a plate section, where there is another complicated step. The falls, "either long, until of 15 meters", and vague of a meter or the more by all the route, to be able to throw of the cord when plating; the line crosses all the ceiling in diagonal, to leave later did above.
HAR
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sticky_fingers
Jul 9, 2003, 9:52 PM
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To quote from the translation:
"I have the made blue legs and the knees in alive meat".
Even after translating, I guess my brain still needs exercising... :P
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xanx
Jul 9, 2003, 10:04 PM
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*cough* *cough* Akira *cough* *cough*
seriously, i dunno about this one... i mean, Realization took Sharma a long, long time to do (and Dave couldn't even do it), and, while there are plenty of people as strong as sharma (fred nicole, rouhling, dave, bernd, klem, the late wolfgang, ect...) to say there is someone THAT much stronger than he, so much so that it is a full 2 grades harder... i dunno.... no one has even confirmed orujo yet, and it seems like no one seriously considers Akira a 9b anymore. And what about Las Ramblas Extension? i haven't heard anything more about that being a possible 9a+.
also, notice how the really strong climbers rarely offer fixed grades on stuff? Klem doesn't come out and say "My new project Emotional Landscapes is an 8c." everyone just assumes "Hmm, it took Klem so long, and he has put up a lot of 9a's and done a bunsh of v14's, so chances are this new thing is either 8b+or 8c..."
i'd like to see some other well-known people try it/repeat it. at least we have Dave's input to verify Realization.
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petsfed
Jul 9, 2003, 10:36 PM
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In reply to: Chilam Balam, an old Aztec town, pre-Columbian times... distant happened to baptize to the line most futurist, and completely natural, of rotpunkt national: 82 meters! for problemón of continuity, skipped with block passages, that the climber Bernabé Andalusian Fernandez chained Friday 4 of July in Villanueva of the Rosary the past (Malaga), after three seasons of tests:. The route is practicable of May to October, in winter it gets wet long ago "and cold".
I have no idea what that means.
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brianthew
Jul 9, 2003, 10:46 PM
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The interesting thing about 5.15 is the fact nobody has repeated it (although sometimes things come close). Grades are established and legitimized by consensus; the more people repeat the more "accurate" the grade is. Problem with 5.15 is that no consensus exists; the five (six?) people that claimed (or are believed to have sent) 5.15a/b/c haven't sent eachother's routes. Such a theoretical grade this 5.15 is, and assigning a/b/c grades seems to me kinda like saying "infinity plus one."
Anyways, I'm gonna go rest after sending the new 5.15d I just set in the gym. :)
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hippie_dreams
Jul 10, 2003, 12:04 AM
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I think it's important to note here that Chris Sharma never actually claimed Realization was a 5.15 - everyone else just kinda looked at it and said, "hmmm, two 14's together, that must be a 15."
Either way, I hope that guy from spain really did send a "5.15c". That would be sick. Wee need crazy people to keep pushing the grade higher and high, altough I'll never be one of those people.
Too bad I can't read spanish, huh.
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akd
Jul 10, 2003, 12:29 AM
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Well, I'll try to do my best in the translation...
The article says that Bernabé Fernández has recently repointed an 82 mts route (like Kalkario said, about 250 feet) and gave it the "proposed" grade of 9b+ (5.15c). It is a route of more than 300 movements, 22 bolts, with two big roofs (the first of 30 mts. and the second, more horizontal, of 20 mts) and it finishes with an "extraplom" (I don't know how you say it in english...).
The climber could finally redpoint it after three years of trying it, but not all year long cos' it's only "available" from may till' october (in winter is very cold and wet).
For proposing this astronomic grade, fernández did compare this route with his former hardest, Orujo (9a+), and he notices that there's a world of difference between the two.
Ufff...
And, in the matter of if it's really that grade or not, Fernández says that it's a proposition and that future climbers will have the last word...Ah, also, it's sayd that it's an ALL NATURAL route.
Wether it's 9b+ or not, we'll know it in the future, but we have to say that this guy (fernández) climbed 8a qheb he was 14, 8c when 17, the first 8c+ of spain is his (Mojave, 1996) (and it was confirmed by Ramonet, the guy that did La Rambla; nevertheless Ramonet sent it in 4 tries...). This info is also in the article.
I'm not spanish, neither have I climbed La Rambla, but people here have been criticizing a route, one that Alex Huber himself says that his "part" ('till the first anchor, rated 8c+) is probably harder than a bunch of "new" 9a's, and he pointed Underground, Kinematrix, etc. (in an interview in desnivel); so maybe, and just maybe, it's also 9a+, who knows, we'll just have to try it one day... :wink:
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akd
Jul 10, 2003, 12:42 AM
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The last part of what I just wrote was just my feelings for what Xanx put, or just from the whole "La rambla" thread that was a couple of months ago.
Because the video showed Ramonet doing it very slowly and kinda easy, people thaught it was much easier than it really is...
Anyway, I heard Steve McClure (a great british sport climber, with 3 9a's done: Mutation, Northern Lights and, I think, the extension of Raindogs) will be travelling soon to Suriana to try to redpoint "la Rambla".
For me, and I think mostly all of us, the best way to know the accuracy in the grading of the hardest routes (the tough guys trying them all)
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kalcario
Jul 10, 2003, 12:46 AM
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*travelling soon to Suriana to try to redpoint "la Rambla". *
Not too soon I hope, it's blazin' hot there till about November...actually he's in Greenland right now I believe
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xanx
Jul 10, 2003, 12:49 AM
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thanks akd
again, consensus is needed. orujo, akira, las ramblas - who knows what grade they are? they need to see some repeats (or even just more attempts) before grades can even be considered. From what i have heard, Graham worked Realization enough that it is pretty much considered to be "the next level" after 9a, or a 9a+. these others are all in the same catagory as a lot of the proposed 8c boulder problems - Emotional Landscapes, Black Eagle SD, Walk Away sit start, that slab in japan, viva la evolution... some of these (black eagle, emotional, viva la evolution) i can easily believe are 8c b/c the ppl who put them up have done other 8c's so they can compare them. New Base Line and Dreamtime have been repeated and confirmed.
but on another note, who really cares what grade they are? does it matter if they are 9a+ or 9a or 9b+?? basically, right now, no one is going to send any of these in a very short period of time - they all go into the same category of "Sick hard multi-month projects for mutants that normal people only gawk at". true, fred nicole flashed a v13, but i bet there are still v13's out that that take him days or weeks to get (look at the video Four from Font - Dave Graham did Big Dragon, v12, in about 3 hours, but Total Eclipse, v12, took him 8 days!). saying "this is a 9b, not a 9a+" is like saying "this warehouse is 12 million square feet, not 11,999,900 square feet".
in my (very uneducated, ignorant, n00b) opinion, as the grades get higher and higher, the differences between grades becomes more and more subjective - it is easier to get a consensus on v7 vs. v6 because the tiny differences between climbers (style, hight, ape index, ect...) don't make as big a difference, but in stuff where you are pushing hte limits, where moving your foot a millimeter over makes a big differences, these tiny differences in climbers can have a drastic effect. Thus, one person says it is really really hard, like 9b+, and another comes along and says it is really hard, but only 9a+. perhaps both climbers are equally strong, both have sent multiple 9a's and know waht a 9a feels like, but have different opinions. it is probably 9a+ for some, 9b for some, 9b+ for others.
now see why grades are pointless? (whose gonna bite?....)
ok enough rambling about grades... i'll go back in my hole now....
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melonhead
Jul 10, 2003, 1:09 AM
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Three years to get 250 ft. of climbing!?! How long did it take Dean Potter to do El Cap and Half Dome.........
Whatever.
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chitlinsconcarne
Jul 10, 2003, 1:58 AM
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A few years ago in Europe there was a guy proposing a similar big grade jump. It was another long roof problem and i can't remember what ever happened with that. I know that at one time people were saying that the FA couldn't repeat the route himself, so maybe the whole thing just faded away?
It took us a fairly good chunk of time to get from 9a to 9a+, but maybe another Wolfgang can come along and change things real quick. You never know.
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xanx
Jul 10, 2003, 2:06 AM
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In reply to: A few years ago in Europe there was a guy proposing a similar big grade jump. It was another long roof problem and i can't remember what ever happened with that. I know that at one time people were saying that the FA couldn't repeat the route himself, so maybe the whole thing just faded away?
that would be Akira, by Fred Roughling (sp?). proposed 9b way before Realization. there was more than one problem, however: i don't think anyone else really tried the route (Yuri might have taken a few rides on it, but i don't think he really worked it). also, i have heard it is artificial - some of the holds are chipped/drilled (or glued?) into the wall, and the whole thing is set for Fred's +7 (sick!) ape index.
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akd
Jul 10, 2003, 2:32 AM
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Dani Andrada has been going to Eaux Calires for some time and repeated some hard stuff (routes and boulders). According to a page about climbing in Charente he also had been working on Akira lately.
Here's a link to that page. Anyway, it says that soon there'll be a report about that (it's from last month). It also says that he managed to do all movements (in the news from may), if my French didn't trick me...
http://www.chez.com/charentescalade/
ps: click on Infos
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junkie
Jul 10, 2003, 3:35 PM
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In reply to: that would be Akira, by Fred Roughling (sp?). proposed 9b way before Realization. there was more than one problem, however: i don't think anyone else really tried the route (Yuri might have taken a few rides on it, but i don't think he really worked it). also, i have heard it is artificial - some of the holds are chipped/drilled (or glued?) into the wall, and the whole thing is set for Fred's +7 (sick!) ape index.
We will try this ONE MORE TIME:
1) Akira is NOT CHIPPED. It has had flakes reinforced with glue to prevent them ripping off.
2) Many have tried. JIBE TRIBOUT tried, and was stymied. He came back from Charentes and openly agreed with Fred Rouhling.
This is an old myth that n00bs insist on bringing back over and over. Check your facts.
Until SOMEONE REPEATS Chilam Balam, Akira, La Rambla Ext., Oruja, L'Autre Cote Du Ciel, or any of the other unrepeated hard climbs, the grade the FA gave the route STICKS.
Until there are valid opinions to counter the FAs claim with, everything else is slander.
I really hope that Chilam Balam IS 15c. That would be cool. I hope some other people (Sharma et.al.) go and try this. Maybe Fernandez is overgrading it. Maybe not. Either way, mad props go out to Fernandez for sending his project!
K out
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liciarothermel
Jul 10, 2003, 4:32 PM
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That's a pretty darn good translation! It's in highly technical-yet-flowery language (often used for long feature stories). The part about blue legs is a direct quotation from Bernabe Fernandez, where he says his legs are black & blue, and his knees skinned to the flesh, so he has been using neoprene kneepads.
My 2-cents' worth. :wink:
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bandycoot
Jul 10, 2003, 5:08 PM
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Climbing is all about pushing personal limits. All our limits are different. Maybe one person can send a 5.15a sloper problem, and another a 5.15a crimp problem but they will never be able to send the other's problem due to genetics. Maybe the 5.15 rating should be reserved for those climbs only climbed by one person, sort of a "B scale" for roped climbing. If it sees two ascents then it is down graded to the .14 status. At some point climbers will be climbing route that ARE unrepeatable due to genetics. Have we reached that point? Possibly. Is it likely? No. Should we always assume that someone is lying about the difficulty of their route? No because it just may be genetic and no one else can climb it. Also, if you train for one climb your body will change and specialize for that climb. Maybe someone else will never put the effort into Realization that Sharma did due to time/money constraints. Their body will never adapt and it may never see another ascent. I know this is unlikely, but just using this as an example. Did Wolfgang Gullich receive the doubt of the climbing community when he claimed 5.14d?
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igcuesta
Jul 11, 2003, 12:40 PM
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Alex Huber has put a little (more than little perhaps) controversy on Bernabe's achievement by sending this letter to desnivel.com:
http://www.desnivel.com/deportes/escalada_en_roca/images/alexander_chilambalam.pdf
(original Alex's english message)
http://www.desnivel.es/object.php?o=8174
(spanish translation)
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crux_clipper
Jul 13, 2003, 5:43 AM
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OUCH!
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alvchen
Jul 13, 2003, 6:01 AM
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The main problem with Alex Huber's logic is that he fails to realize, as stated above, the difficulty of many climbs is relative.
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xanx
Jul 13, 2003, 3:04 PM
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ok fill me in here real quick... what was L'Autre Cote Du Ciel? who put it up? i have heard of Realization, Las Ramblas ext., Orujo, Chilam Balam, Akira, but not that one as climbs over 9a...
kind of odd, though, that no boulderers are proposing "9A" or "8C+" boulder problems... especially considering the nasty hard stuff fred and bernd and the others have been up to.... of course, i think a lot of boulderers don't even mention a proposed grade anyway....
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biff
Jul 13, 2003, 4:11 PM
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Also being able to get a .15a in a few tries is rediculous... I think if it took you 3 years to dial the moves of a route .. it could take up to a month to work a route a few grades below that.
None the less, what Alex is saying is true .. What other routes has this guy climbed .. where is the proof of the ascent .. and where is the proof that this guy can climb as hard as he says.
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